Transcript of the Virtual World Roundtable's Visit to the New Zealand Grid, March 11, 2010
Thanks to Olivia Hotshot for our opening picture. Join our VWER group at Flickr and add your own!
AJ Kelton: so - lets start out by saying who we are - since we're using "real" names, some of us may not know who YOU are
AJ Kelton: obviously everyone knows who I am
Birdie Newborn: Apple script didn't work for me, but the Hippo viewer did
Lindy McKeown: feel like I need medieval clothing in here
Ivy Innis: same here
Mirt Tenk: Suzie Medders, Clemson University
Hanno Tietgens: Mirt, sry ;)
Lindy McKeown: and where is my chalice of wine
Mirt Tenk: no I LIKE Mirtle!
Arwenna Stardust: :)
Ivy Innis: on apple script
Hanno Tietgens: LOL
Ann Steckel: Ann Steckel playing the role of Ann Steckel, formerly played by Olivia Hotshot of SL fame and fortune
Margaret Czart: Margaret Czart, Doctoral Student and Research Information Specialist at the Distant Education Office at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
AJ Kelton: lol
Birdie Newborn: Birdie Newborn/Newcomb, inveterate joiner
Iggy Strangeland: Joe Essid, Rhetoric & Communication Studies, University of Richmond
Ann Steckel: hey Prof Dan
Corrie Bergeron: Corrie Bergeron aka Fletcher Pinion, ID @ lakeland CC in Ohio
Dan Holt: Thanks, Scott.
Scott Diener: yw Dan
AJ Kelton: who else?
Ivy Innis: Beth Wellman working in K-12
Birdie Newborn: so, where's the roast pig?
Arwenna Stardust: Clare Atkins - from NMIT in NZ - Arwenna and I were part of the SLENZ project
Arwenna Stardust: :)
Hanno Tietgens: Hanno Tietgens, Campus Hamburg in 3D project in Germany, and TUEV NORD r+d projects
Jurate Stanaityte: J. Stanaityte, Stockholm Univ., doctoral student in management
Mirt Tenk is in awe of SLENZ
Dan Holt: Dan Holt, Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI.
Lindy McKeown: Lindy McKeown: University of Southern Queensland
Arwenna Stardust: Scott let Arwenna in here :)
AJ Kelton: Lindy - better know as.....
Arwenna Stardust: ty Mirt :)
Mirt Tenk: yw
Randy Wall: Randy Wall from Academic Technologies at CSU, Chico friend of Ann
Hanno Tietgens: thx Mirt(le;)
Bruce Shaw: Bruce Shaw - currently unemployed former systems analyst, LSL developer
Lindy McKeown: Hahah AJ ...better known as Decka Mah perhaps
Mirt Tenk: yay! I have a nickname!
AJ Kelton: I'd say you are pretty well known as Decka
AJ Kelton: :)
Arwenna Stardust: and as Lindy :)
AJ Kelton: I didn't mean to out you, though
AJ Kelton: :-)
Birdie Newborn: for a few years now
Lindy McKeown: yeah AJ Decka gets more google hits than Lindy now
AJ Kelton: LOL
Ann Steckel: Heyya Chim !
AJ Kelton: so - I thought we would do TWO things today
Liz Dorland: only 2? ;-)
Arwenna Stardust: Scott - I love being a knight of the Round Table
AJ Kelton: first, "d like Scott to tell us a little about his project here and the NZVWG
Arwenna Stardust: sorry AJ
Liz Dorland: hihi
Scott Diener: haha....no swords yet
AJ Kelton: then - I thought we'd chat about virtual worlds and EDU
AJ Kelton: and to close, I thought we'd go explore and maybe even....
AJ Kelton: intergrid to another grid on the node, if we can
AJ Kelton: so - Scott, want to kick us off?
Birdie Newborn: Sliders!
Scott Diener: Yes, thanks AJ
Scott Diener: and Welcome to New Zealand!
Scott Diener: this is really an exciting development for us
Ann Steckel: 20 people at meeting for the transcript
Ann Steckel: and more are dropping
Lindy McKeown claps and delights at being in NZ even virtually
Scott Diener: this VW is running on two servers, each hosting 6 sims
Scott Diener: we are stand-alone...we run our own asset server (database)
Scott Diener: Otago University and Canterbury University have similar setups
Scott Diener: then we linked them together
Mirt Tenk: what's your prim load per sim?
Scott Diener: tp'ing is difficult, but we have done it
Scott Diener: 45,000 per sim
Mirt Tenk: woohoo!
Ann Steckel: wow
Iggy Strangeland: 45K?? Wow.
Scott Diener: I had one student create 28,950 prims in 5 seconds (recursive script)
Mirt Tenk just had to do serious house cleaning on SL island today
Arwenna Stardust: and how!!
Corrie Bergeron: what's the count for this castle & furnishings?
Scott Diener: that did slow us down!
Ann Steckel: potential griefer skills =)
Arwenna Stardust: Hi John :)
Scott Diener: dunno Corrie, I am being a prim hog on this development
Scott Diener: at any rate, the Hypergrid does work, albeit with problems
Iggy Strangeland: hey, no reason to skimp if you run the servers
Ann Steckel: and mlooks like megas are allowed...?
Corrie Bergeron: it's gorgeous, though
Scott Diener: we can tp to Otago Uni, but it is difficult to get back
Mirt Tenk: did you build all from scratch or import anything?
Arwenna Stardust: Looks like 5000 prims Scott
Scott Diener: yes, meg's can be created here on the fly...using Emerald
Mirt Tenk: that's wonderful
Jurate Stanaityte: they taught me to make non-existent prims. ban Emerald :)
Scott Diener: anyway, our goals here are, first to experiment...and eventually to link to other grids
Scott Diener: we have a very active VW group here in NZ....Arwenna drives that...hehehe
Arwenna Stardust: I try :)
Arwenna Stardust: I could say a little about that later
Scott Diener: Ah, and Johnnie Waugh is here....our wonderful blogger....
Arwenna Stardust: *waves to John
Scott Diener: This is all running on two virtual servers (VMware)
Liz Dorland: ah...Decka = Lindy :-)
Scott Diener: so, the total investment is pretty small...under $10k NZD
Johnnie Waugh: waves back to Arwenna
Mirt Tenk: how much is that approx $usd
Scott Diener: $7000 currently
Liz Dorland obeyed orders to use RL name, but feels weird
Iggy Strangeland: sweet, compared to 55K for SL Enterprise
Mirt Tenk: ok ty
Mirt Tenk: yeah, adn don't you have to pay them to maintain it?
Iggy Strangeland: how about your annual costs to maintain this?
Mirt Tenk: I think it's still not open source
Iggy Strangeland: Mirt and I must share a brain
Mirt Tenk: uh oh
Mirt Tenk: I just want your mini
Iggy Strangeland: poor Mirt
Scott Diener: I have dedicated one staff member, one day a week
Mirt Tenk: wow
Corrie Bergeron: Is that an IT server guru type?
Iggy Strangeland: how much training time to get that person up to speed?
Ann Steckel: notices dreds growing from Mirt's head
Scott Diener: the last couple of days I have used him a bit more!
Mirt Tenk: lol NOT
Ann Steckel: =)
Scott Diener: yes, he is very knowledgeable
Dan Holt: So eight hours a week--that sounds remarkably reasonable!
Iggy Strangeland hides keys to Mini Cooper
Mirt Tenk: I will say, Scott, I set up an Open Sim on a box in my office and I am NOT a programmer
Mirt Tenk: but we figured it out
Scott Diener: most of the time, I have not even used that
Corrie Bergeron: Does it really take that to keep this up and running? Sounds like a fair amount of work to me.
Mirt Tenk: so, depending on scale of use, you can start smaller
Arwenna Stardust has her mini cooper outside in rl :)
Mirt Tenk: no fair!
Corrie Bergeron: What level of usage is this world geared for?
Iggy Strangeland: Scott, how much leverage did you need to get this approved at your school?
Scott Diener: Most of the work is about getting things like voice working, and getting the Hypergrid working
AJ Kelton: how many people have you supported in world at the same time
Liz Dorland: I created one sim on my MacBook Pro but I haven't learned to make more than one or to link to any other grid yet
Scott Diener: This is the most I have had AJ
Scott Diener: Iggy, I did this out of my own budget
Mirt Tenk: and for higher ed, getting onto a server that is not blocked from the rest of the world via firewall
AJ Kelton: and [knock wood] it seems to be stable
Corrie Bergeron: Any clue as to how much it's taxing your system?
Scott Diener: It is not taxing our system
AJ Kelton: excellent!
Bruce Shaw: there must be some sort of hit
Mirt Tenk: I had to have a couple ports opened for my specific IP address to join the Open Beta Grid
Scott Diener: CPU cycles at present are under 5%
Corrie Bergeron: You have a budget? How nice that must be...
Mirt Tenk: wow
AJ Kelton: holy moley
Mirt Tenk: and didn't you say you run other stuff on the same servers?
Mirt Tenk: and reallocate server resources as needed?
Scott Diener: I am the Associate Director, ITS here...over Academic technologies...I get toys
Corrie Bergeron: well, two servers and only 20 or so avatars, no scripts running, sounds reasonable
Arwenna Stardust laughs
Corrie Bergeron: It's GOOD to be the King!
AJ Kelton: LOL
Scott Diener: Mirt, we are running the database and 6 sims on one server
Iggy Strangeland: @Scott--this is how our Writing Center began. I bought a server out of budget, then eventually got it supported by our data center. Now they maintain it and I just design content. We proved the concept. If it works for 2D Web, it can work for VWs.
AJ Kelton: holy crap!
Scott Diener: we will move those sims off to another server soon
Mirt Tenk: I know in Nov you said sometimes you reallocate
Corrie Bergeron: So these are dedicated machines, then?
Mirt Tenk: to & from VMs?
Mirt Tenk: or did I misunderstand?
Scott Diener: yes, these are dedicated virtual machines....we can duplicate them in about 30 minutes...to scale if necessary
Mirt Tenk: that's great
Mirt Tenk: do you do the Save OAR thing to back up?
Mirt Tenk: content?
Scott Diener: this is connected to our SAN....automatic
Corrie Bergeron: How much time from when the boxes arrived on the shipping dock until you were able to log into an empty world and start building?
Dan Holt: How old are these sims, Scott, and what have students done here?
Scott Diener: Corrie, we simply create a virtual server....
Corrie Bergeron: (In order to do something like this here, I've got to get time from a VERY busy guy who supports the server end of Banner, Touchnet, Booklog, Blackboard...)
Iggy Strangeland: Thanks Dan! I was about to ask that.
Scott Diener: Dan, these have been here for a year now....not much student involvement...most of that is happening on our SL sims (3)
Ann Steckel: wondering what curriculum areas are taught here - and how many students are serviced
Iggy Strangeland: then at this point, Scott, is this proof of concept?
Lindy McKeown: Corrie or you could buy hosted Open Sim from the ReactionGrid people
AJ Kelton: what are the primary content areas?
Scott Diener: Most of the work with students in SL has been in medicine/nursing/architecture
Ann Steckel: thank you Scott
Scott Diener: yes Iggy...this is focused mostly on proving the concept of Hypergrid
Corrie Bergeron: I think here the primary curricular areas would be jousting and feasting,,,
Scott Diener: but now, I am ready to have FUN and bring folks here!
Iggy Strangeland: thank you. I'm impressed at it already.
Arwenna Stardust: and questing!
Randy Wall: pretty fascinating Scott
Dan Holt: You need a Quidditch field!
Johnnie Waugh: Dayam I havent got my katanas.
Johnnie Waugh: katanas
Mirt Tenk: Scott what about opening to public login?
Scott Diener: yes...the problem here is there are few resources...all scripts have to be brought in
AJ Kelton: so - folks - the big question we've asked at all of our non-sl VW meeting is, does this seem like a viable alternative to SL. If so, why, if not, why not?
Lindy McKeown: so great that this is driven by the IT people...so hard when you ahve to fight them to do this
Mirt Tenk: is that a security issue w/your univ?
Corrie Bergeron: So let me understand - if we already have VMware, we could just set up a virtual server and install OpenSim per the readme?
Mirt Tenk: AJ I think it is a very good replacement
Mirt Tenk: for SL
Arwenna Stardust: I think it WILL be a viable alternative soon.
AJ Kelton: why do you say that Arwenna?
Corrie Bergeron: No age limit, no naught content
Scott Diener: Mirt, didn't understand your question on security
James Abraham: I think as soon as voice available for free, it will be very viable.
Mirt Tenk: Sad as I was to hear about Pathfinder's position elimination, it is consistent w/LL's declining support of higher ed
Lindy McKeown: Hypergridded federation universe of locally hosted worlds with some access by others but some private spaces does seem a great education alternative for many reasons
James Abraham: is*
Scott Diener: voice is available
Corrie Bergeron: there's no money in it
AJ Kelton: hey - we survived in SL without voice for a long time
Mirt Tenk: I would have a hard time getting our NOC to open a server to outsiders to login
James Abraham: But voice costs, right?
Scott Diener: no
Margaret Czart: I believe all of the virtual worlds we have visited so far are a good alternative. It is not so much the place but how you run it.
Birdie Newborn: for a university, looks good. Connecting to other grids might be the next task.
Scott Diener: voice is free
Lindy McKeown: we need a SLexchange type system for other grids since LL bought that up
Ann Steckel: i say give it a year and someone will be putting out a product that might be ready -but i stil am of the opinion open sim is too wonky for high traffic activities where students get "graded"
James Abraham: Why aren't we in voice then?
James Abraham: For transcript.
Scott Diener: we have voice working...just problems that precluded use today
AJ Kelton: having an INternet2 type set up for virtual EDU grids - now THERE is a goal
Johnnie Waugh: that is true a n slexchange that can deliver to any chosen grid.
Jurate Stanaityte: Building=impossible
Arwenna Stardust: Yes Ann I am inclined to agree with you
AJ Kelton: build is impossible here?
Arwenna Stardust: no not impossible
Mirt Tenk: Ann: If higher ed would work together to stabilize Open Sim, we can make it what we need
Scott Diener: I built all this!
James Abraham: Isn't voice licensed through Vivoxx?
Scott Diener: not impossible at all
Johnnie Waugh: building is the same here as on any other grid.. Ive done quite a bit in here without problems.
Dan Holt: It looks great, Scott.
AJ Kelton: I think a year is too long
Arwenna Stardust: although scripting can be a little unreliable imo
AJ Kelton: I think by the summer we will begin to see stability not yet seen in the OSG market
Ann Steckel: Mirt - collaboration means more man power and brain power and funding - so yes, makes sense.
Lindy McKeown: if we all pooled out SL monthly payments , we could fund a worldwide consortium
Johnnie Waugh: true about scripting..... wondering what Cider has circling his ocean.
Ann Steckel: AJ, why by summer?
AJ Kelton: those of us who have been doing this in SL for a while remember when it was not much different than this
AJ Kelton: and MUCH less stable
AJ Kelton: gut feeling
Arwenna Stardust: true AJ
Mirt Tenk: I've been pushing for a self-hosted, interoperable model since summer 08
Iggy Strangeland: I wonder if any of the Xstreetsl alternatives that are freebie friendly would be ready to cater to OS worlds
Corrie Bergeron: Scott, re-asking the setup question - I sweet-talk IT into creating a virtual server, then run the opensim install per the readme file? How long does setup and tweaking take?
Lindy McKeown: I agree AJ and this is still alpha
Mirt Tenk: Scott has done it for us
Mirt Tenk: the model that is
Ann Steckel: agree - anyone remember the era of the "missing texture" all over people?
Jurate Stanaityte: [sorry, wrong window earlier from me, guys.]
Johnnie Waugh: Iggy Lindens have bought up the competition havent they?
Birdie Newborn: or Black Wednesdays
Scott Diener: Corrie, it took us two days to get everything set and working with some reasonable stability
AJ Kelton: lidens haven't bought any other VW companies
Johnnie Waugh: Yes.... or holes in texture
James Abraham: I'm writing a grant to roll out a 10 college zero-cost virtual world program for the Maricopa Community College District. I think OpenSim is the way to go. I've had it up and running locally, but need to learn more about for the institution. I am Spanish faculty.
AJ Kelton: BLACK WEDNESDAY!!!!!!!!
Mirt Tenk applauds James Abraham
Mirt Tenk: /clap
AJ Kelton: Spanish faculty - we need to talk!!!!
Dan Holt: Sounds very cool, James.
Iggy Strangeland: @Johnnie--there are some alternatives out there
Ann Steckel: good luck james
James Abraham: Calisto Encinal in SL.
AJ Kelton: James - lets catch up off line - sorry.afk@gmail.com
Johnnie Waugh: Iggy would like the links if possible..
AJ Kelton: I'll be away for spring break - so after the 23rd
Iggy Strangeland: but to be honest, I think LL is exerting pressure on vendor-makers like Hippo NOT to make their products work in other worlds
James Abraham: http://calistoencinal.spaces.live.com/
Mirt Tenk: of course they are!
Ann Steckel: How do you know that Iggy?
Johnnie Waugh: Johnnie Wendt in SL..... if you have a moment.... ah thanks.
Mirt Tenk: Linden Lab is a for-profit company
Mirt Tenk: how many of us work for a for-profit institution?
AJ Kelton: it is not in the LL best interests to promote competition
Corrie Bergeron: *crickets chirping*
Mirt Tenk: (And I don't hold that against them)
Iggy Strangeland: http://imnotgoingsideways.blogspot.com/2009/11/alternatives-to-xstreetsl.html for other sales portals
Birdie Newborn: perhaps to buy up competition -- but theyre not doing that
James Abraham: I think one of the obstacles for SL has been the price for permanent builds. OpenSim eliminates that barrier. With no barrier, I think more people will be willing to give it a try.
Arwenna Stardust: for me one of the huge benefits to opensim is that we can use it with under 18's
Mirt Tenk: if we took the stuff WE have built in SL and share it open source for OpenSim, that would be a lot
AJ Kelton: YESA!!!!!!!!
Johnnie Waugh: Great Iggy ..have it up now
Corrie Bergeron: and we want an inworld economy so students can run virtual business, right?
Scott Diener: James...(reading back) we are not using Vivoxx...using Freeswitch for voice
Dan Holt: Very true, Arwenna.
Arwenna Stardust: Yes Mirt - totally in favour of that
Iggy Strangeland: @Ann--I have heard from a friend who is working in OSgrid about Hippo's response. Nothing direct but a very cautious way of saying "we cannot do that at this time."
James Abraham: @Arwenna, Yes! and be closed to outside. Some like that control.
Ann Steckel: gotcha Iggy
James Abraham: Thanks, Scott. I'll check it out.
Arwenna Stardust: all the SLENZ builds are free
Iggy Strangeland: let's face it, he who owns the servers can disable certain scripts. Don't need to be a code-god to know that
Arwenna Stardust: free to copy
Corrie Bergeron: What do you have in the way of user admin tools? Can you automatically create user accounts? Batch-delete them?
Arwenna Stardust: and we need to maintain that as a principle imo
Lindy McKeown: why couldn't the inworld currency be through prim based tokens and not through the world for business simulations or even a bank system vias scripts to the web?
Scott Diener: presently I approve all user accounts...but I simply have to click a link to do that
Johnnie Waugh: and *grin* Acardia Asyslum in SL made all her builds free and able to be exported anywhere.
Mirt Tenk thanks Scott for approving her account!
Liz Dorland: So I just added your grid into to Hippo and came right in no problem (on Mac). Not sure what all that about making scripts was in your instructions AJ. :-)
Birdie Newborn: Me too
AJ Kelton: that came from Scott
Scott Diener: oh sure, blame me
AJ Kelton: lol
Liz Dorland: ah, non Mac guy?
Dan Holt: I did the same, Liz, with Emerald, but very buggy, went to realextend.
Liz Dorland: heheh
Mirt Tenk: actually, I couldn't get in on AJ's instructions but did on Scott's
Iggy Strangeland: Hippo's viewer only needs the grid settings. I'm on the SL Release Client and went the Applescript route
Liz Dorland: I didn't use either
AJ Kelton: wait - I just copied Scotts instructions
Liz Dorland: just did what I always do with adding the links to the grid choices
Mirt Tenk: lol
James Abraham: I just had to change the path to SL on my computer. I'm in 64-bit so SL is in the (x86) folder.
Scott Diener: hahah....setting up the desktop shortcut is next on my "automatic" list
AJ Kelton: i followed those instructions on my PC in my office and the only problems I had wee my own fat fingers
James Abraham: nmc does that. Or Heritage Key.
Liz Dorland: no need for desktop shortcut editing on mac
Mirt Tenk: it's the same for any Open Sim
Margaret Czart: I was going to use Hippo but since the instructions specified a sim I was not sure how that would work.
James Abraham: You download the program and it is automatically configured.
Liz Dorland: the grid gets remembered in the drop-down menu as soon as you enter it once
James Abraham: program=client
Bruce Shaw: beta2 didn't work, I don't think opensim is set up for it
Corrie Bergeron: Hippo is a viewer/client?
Scott Diener: Hi Cider!
Mirt Tenk: does beta2 work on ANY OpenSim?
Arwenna Stardust waves to Cider
AJ Kelton: so - how close do you think we (the industry or EDU) is to thumbing out nose at LL
Liz Dorland: yes, Hippo is what OpenSim grids often have you download
Johnnie Waugh: hi Cider
Liz Dorland: got my client from OpenSim grid webpages
Cider Jack: Hello :)
Johnnie Waugh: Hippo has a lot of advantages in here too..
Ann Steckel: Hi cider
Corrie Bergeron: But clearly the standard SL viewer works here.
Dan Holt: If BB is any indication, not anywhere near, AJ.
Scott Diener: I don't think we ARE close AJ
Liz Dorland: I use the same one for Reaction Grid
Lindy McKeown: Scott can you tell us more about how hypergrid is working (or not) for you?
AJ Kelton: Dan, Scott - explain
Liz Dorland: and 3RG
Corrie Bergeron: So it's like a browser for VWs. Got it.
Iggy Strangeland: @AJ--I don't think we dare. Yet.
Dan Holt: BB has been horrible with support, yet higher ed has flocked to it.
Liz Dorland: so is the SL client - if you can get into where you add other grids
James Abraham: I teach Spanish in SL, but my COM colleague is not interested in opensim because she wants her student to be exposed to the rest of the world.
Scott Diener: and in fact, I don't think that is even the question...I think we need to ask how we can augment our SL resources with VW like this
AJ Kelton: Why? Three have spoken up - but not said why
Arwenna Stardust: yes James - I think that is a problem at the moment
Arwenna Stardust: but no reason why it has to be
Iggy Strangeland: It's more of them thumbing their noses at us, dude
Mirt Tenk: I agree w/Scott
AJ Kelton: well - they've already done that - in any number of ways
Liz Dorland: Exactly James - I feel the same way. Important to connect with the rest of the world
Iggy Strangeland: as long as we need community and a wider VW to study, we'll keep a presence in SL
James Abraham: I use SL in two ways: I have my own environment built that could be in OpenSIm, but I also want them to have access to native speakers.
Arwenna Stardust: BUT I do think that the richness of SL and its diversity is something that will be hard to grow in OS
Mirt Tenk: b/c when interoperability is standardized, we'll link in to SL also
Mirt Tenk: unless they don't want to join the rest of the world
Johnnie Waugh: If SL would allow hypergrid connections...would solve all the problems...and there are suggestions they are moving that way.
Liz Dorland: but opensim can give you a place to experiment and build much cheaper
Iggy Strangeland: I could do my Usher simulation fine in OpenSim, however. It does not need a larger world.
James Abraham: @Mirt--that is when opensim will go, when it connects to SL.
Mirt Tenk: SL won't allow hypergrid connections until commerce & identity & inventory mgmt are stabilized
Arwenna Stardust: Yes Mirt!! that will be a wonderful day :)
AJ Kelton: and it won't be stabilized until the industry follows LL standards
Ann Steckel: what abou twhen other open sim installations connect with each other? if someone one with power would start that ... then...
Birdie Newborn: copyright control
Lindy McKeown: Liz "much cheaper" is not true if you include the salary of the tech as he costs as much as a month of SL tier for an island every week so 4 times the cost of SL
Johnnie Waugh: true Mirt...but they are working between Osgrid and others....
Mirt Tenk: those are the big holdups and there are ppl working on them
Iggy Strangeland: at some point, friends, we educators will realize that, collectively, we have a lot more financial resources than does LL. Consider how much a typical school spends on Blackboard.
Mirt Tenk: b/c the others allow it
Johnnie Waugh: yes true
Dan Holt: Good point, Iggy.
Mirt Tenk: and as higher ed, you have to be careful about ID mgmt if you're hosting something on, say, state-owned servers
Arwenna Stardust: @Ann I think OpenGrid does that
Liz Dorland: I don't think it's so hard to log out of SL and into and OS grid and then back again
Arwenna Stardust: you can join in to the OpenGrid grid
Liz Dorland: like switching from email to web LOL
Ann Steckel: oh? how large of a network do they have?
Mirt Tenk: yes Iggy but @ CU, BB is a mission-critical system, SL/VWs are not
AJ Kelton: 21 people - huzaah!!
Arwenna Stardust: not sure atm but it was growing
Scott Diener: but we already know how to deal with ID....we can Shibbolize the whole thing!
Johnnie Waugh: problem is your ivnentory stays behind...... always *grin*
Iggy Strangeland: @Mirt...Web browsers were not mission-critical in 1995, either
Arwenna Stardust: and your hair!!!!!
Mirt Tenk: have you done it Scott?
Mirt Tenk: I've been saying that RE Shibboleth
Corrie Bergeron: naked we come into the world, and naked we leave...
Scott Diener: we have shibbolized our learning management system
Dan Holt: And they were way more buggy than opensim, Iggy!
Mirt Tenk: w/OpenSim?
Johnnie Waugh: and Ruth came first...
Liz Dorland: you would not WANT me to bring my SL inventory in here hahahaha
Scott Diener: not yet...but simple to do
Ann Steckel: i know this is weird and not based in fact, but this environments "feels" more stable than other open sim installations i have been on.
Cider Jack: OpenLife?
AJ Kelton: I agree Ann
Dan Holt: Agreed, Ann.
Lindy McKeown: Iggy, your school should go Moodle and get rid of the license fees for your LMS
Corrie Bergeron: ann, that's 'cuz of all the stone walls
Ann Steckel: =)
Arwenna Stardust: Sorry Ann - I meant OpenLife not OpenGrid - thanks Cider
Iggy Strangeland: Rezzable said, publicly, that they are working on an intergrid inventory solution
Ann Steckel: no worries arwenna
Johnnie Waugh: Yes Liz I think I would have to do a lot of sorting...but if inventory could be held on your own computer would solve the problem.
Corrie Bergeron: moodle is free like a free puppy, not like free beer...
Mirt Tenk: Ann: for starters, the highest ARC here is 31
Birdie Newborn: Stable now, but for me it wasn't an hour or so ago
Scott Diener: we have intergrid inventory here
AJ Kelton: arc?
Mirt Tenk: high ARC is one of the worst edu offenses in SL group meetings!
Scott Diener: when I tp to another node, my inventory is available to me
Mirt Tenk: Avatar Rendering Costs
Dan Holt: And Corrie, that's why BB is so big, and getting away from LL will be problematic for many institutions.
Iggy Strangeland: @Lindy--faculty won't switch w/o an incentive. Their materials are in Bb.
Scott Diener: however, when I build in that node, the build stays in THAT asset server
Dan Holt: Once they commit.
Ann Steckel: Most "fee" apps mean tons of tech support in=house and home grown - as welll as the support once people get in - sometimes no so cheap
Liz Dorland: with capabilities to download and upload your own things you make in clients like Emerald, the problem is starting to get solved
Mirt Tenk: Advanced > Rendering: Info Displays > Avatar Rendering Costs
Corrie Bergeron: Fleep would probably crash the server, she has a HUGE inventory
Arwenna Stardust: Arwenna too :(
Scott Diener: you are not actually carrying it in...just linking back to it
Liz Dorland: yeah Fleep has over 100K items
AJ Kelton: here's the real big plus - instead of giving one of my faculty members a few parcels, I can give them a whole island!
Liz Dorland: I only have 62K *winks*
Mirt Tenk: yeah but it goes on YOUR server, Scott!
Mirt Tenk: yep
Scott Diener: yes, locally
Johnnie Waugh: hell Fleep must have a lot of lag.
Corrie Bergeron: right. we do not have anything on SL, b/c of the age issue
Scott Diener: but the database can handle that
Dan Holt: Or some massive computer!
Mirt Tenk: my dream is to see VW space auto-provisioned to CU users like we auto-provision web space now
James Abraham: SL has dropped to 13 years of age.
Mirt Tenk: when James?
AJ Kelton: what?
Liz Dorland: 13?
AJ Kelton: no it hasn't
Liz Dorland: ???
AJ Kelton: and there is no plan to
Dan Holt: that would be teen.
James Abraham: When I just tried to set up an alt two weeks ago.
Iggy Strangeland: Teen grid is 13
AJ Kelton: they have a teen grid - but they are not connected
James Abraham: Try setting up an alt.
Mirt Tenk: no kidding?!
Johnnie Waugh: dont think that is officially James...checked it with the Lindens when the rumour first occurred on SLED and they said no.
Mirt Tenk: I figured that was part of moving Adult content out
Arwenna Stardust: you have to jump through lots of hoops to get on to the TG dont you
Liz Dorland: Teen grid requires background checks for adults who come, and they can only be on one sim
Iggy Strangeland: quick way to tell: go to Ahern/Morris welcome areas and just listen in :)
Arwenna Stardust: and then you are very restricted in what you can do
Birdie Newborn: You can have a vetted alt on Teen Grid.
James Abraham: I swear when I set up an alt a couple of weeks ago, the age was 13. I was shocked too.
AJ Kelton: and Claudia Linen told me in no uncertain terms that a merger of grids in no in the near future
James Abraham: Let me check.
AJ Kelton: screen cap it if you can
Johnnie Waugh: yep in those welcome areas they behave like kids but I think they are mainly of age... just loudmouthed idiots.
Corrie Bergeron: Makes sense for them to keep separate. kiddie porn liabilities out the wazoo
James Abraham: It is 13!
James Abraham: Read this: https://join.secondlife.com/faq.php
Liz Dorland: my clothing folder still says "loading" so I can't wear what Scott gave me earlier :-(
AJ Kelton: plus - from what I know from folks who work on the teen grid (ie: Peg Sheehy), the kids don't want us on their grid and they don't care about the cartoon porn, they can find real porn on the web
James Abraham: Why do we ask your date of birth?
Ann Steckel: scott is giving ut clothes? *perks*
James Abraham: Now you have to be age verified to get Adult status.
Mirt Tenk: Yep
Mirt Tenk: In order to make Second Life a safe and secure online environment enjoyable for all users over the age of 13, we require an accurate date of birth. By entering your date of birth, you are agreeing that you are 13 years of age or older. Linden Lab reserves all rights to vigorously pursue legal action against all persons who misrepresent personal information or are otherwise untruthful about their identity, and to suspend or cancel Accounts registered with inaccurate or incomplete information.
James Abraham: They check your social or mortgage.
Johnnie Waugh: Yep James you are RIGHT!
Iggy Strangeland wonders...if virtual worlds *ever* become mission critical, what will be more important? Data security? Then OpenSim on your own server. Community? Then a bit virtual world. I can see admins and faculty disagreeing on this one, when the decision is made to spend money.
AJ Kelton: that is for the teen grid
Liz Dorland: well, Bruce is wearing the same things I got ;-)
James Abraham: No, it's not.
Corrie Bergeron: I'm gobsmacked.
Arwenna Stardust: yes but yuou still go to the Teen Grid if you put your age as less than 18
Johnnie Waugh: ahhhhh
Mirt Tenk: Iggy: Laws on security, esp for Higher ed, are getting tougher
James Abraham: Okay, they get your age and then send you to the Teen Grid?
Corrie Bergeron: ooohhhh....
Arwenna Stardust: yes
James Abraham: k
Corrie Bergeron: well, that stinks!
Mirt Tenk: it is a technical and legal factor for higher ed if we want to host VWs
Lindy McKeown: Scott how will you verify new users are students? Will you put the avatar creation behind the university log in first?
Liz Dorland: interesting - I thought there were controls to verify that teens are really teens when they enter teen grid
Iggy Strangeland: James, big thanks on that. I had *no* idea
Scott Diener: for the students we intend to use our current AD
Scott Diener: (active directory)
Corrie Bergeron: I suspect we'd need the same sort of automatic system that we use to create student email and Bb accounts.
Mirt Tenk: Scott: I'd like to shibbolize so we can auto-provision accts
Ann Steckel: sometimes i think resident confusion is one of the main tools Linden's use to do what they want. If it become confusing enough, then people spend eons debating it on the SLED list and nothing get done or really known - just speculation and hints of innuendo
Scott Diener: so their accounts will be automatic
Arwenna Stardust: @Ann - haha!
Mirt Tenk: Exactly!
Ann Steckel: using LDAP might work
Liz Dorland is afraid to shibbolize...
Corrie Bergeron: Of course, using real names makes role-playing somewhat problematic
Mirt Tenk: we use AD also
Liz Dorland: sounds painful! heheh
Iggy Strangeland: @Ann....LL is the Byzantine Empire
Ann Steckel: Igg too funny
Iggy Strangeland: Their wiki is a friggin' labyrinth
Scott Diener: lol
Mirt Tenk: and probematic when you have more than one w/same name
Dan Holt: And BB is the Borg.
AJ Kelton: NOOOOBody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Mirt Tenk: however, @ CU, everyone has a unique userid
Liz Dorland: haha AJ
Arwenna Stardust: hahaha AJ!! not the comfy chair!
Iggy Strangeland: stop that, Cardinal Fang
Ann Steckel knocks the parrot off Iggy's shoulder
Mirt Tenk: as I'm sure every other univ
Corrie Bergeron: Ni!
Scott Diener: yes Mirt....
AJ Kelton: sad - how many people got that
Liz Dorland thinks about dead parrots...
Arwenna Stardust: lol!!!
Ann Steckel: <3 Monty
AJ Kelton: its a was-budgie
Corrie Bergeron: 'e pinin for the fjords
Bruce Shaw: AJ: ROFL
Arwenna Stardust: no! ex-parrots!!
AJ Kelton: lol
Iggy Strangeland: y'all are killing me!
Corrie Bergeron: b'ootiful plumage
Arwenna Stardust: I'm a lumberjack
AJ Kelton: what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow
Iggy Strangeland: I've got a slug
Cider Jack: and you're ok!
Mirt Tenk: so Scott, how can we set up an OpenSim and connect to your grid?
Liz Dorland: and translation books
Corrie Bergeron: Alright, now, stop this silliness.
Liz Dorland: hahaha
Ann Steckel: behaves now that Mirt asks a great question
Arwenna Stardust: tooo silly
Mirt Tenk: or CAN we connect?
Cider Jack wished he had a silly walk ao
Scott Diener: @Mirt....we are quite open to working with any university to do this...that would be exciting
Corrie Bergeron: Or is it like Hotel California with a one-way portal?
Bruce Shaw groans
Lindy McKeown: you can connect any open sim grid NOW to Reaction Grid using hypergrid
Mirt Tenk: but do you want a higher ed grid?
Iggy Strangeland: This, plus a transferable INV, will change the game forever, if we get an intuitive enough UI
Corrie Bergeron: What are the issues of student avs gridding / poraling / *travelling abroad*
Mirt Tenk: is everyone in ReactionGrid going to want to share stuff?
AJ Kelton: yes - as long as we can also go to SL for the content there
Liz Dorland: I don't want a higher ed grid unless it leads folks into wider worlds
Liz Dorland: if they only stay there, that's bad
Mirt Tenk: you want to bring content from SL?
AJ Kelton: yes!
Lindy McKeown: education.au in Australia are trying to set up a hypergrid for all Australian universities to join
Liz Dorland: Ivory Tower stuff
Mirt Tenk: You have to have full perms
Corrie Bergeron: not everyone - I have faculty who wont put their videos on the streaming server for fear someone will make off with them...
Iggy Strangeland: @Corrie--make them sign a waiver. We are not parents. If they are adults, and can die for their nation, it's not my or a university's business what they do on their computers.
Lindy McKeown: you can also buy OAR files full of content and there are lots of free ones too
AJ Kelton stands up and applauds Iggy
Mirt Tenk: yes, Lindy, good point
Ann Steckel: i think th eminute someone comes up with a "kit" that educators can use to start up their teaching - avatar skin and shape packs, hair, shoes, basic clothing, basic teaching tools - people will have more confidence to jump in. And whoever makes that kit could possibly make a bundle.
Iggy Strangeland: if we worry about cybering, don't. My students think it creepy and silly. They live avatarian lives IRL already.
Mirt Tenk: EXACTLY
Arwenna Stardust: SL would be a very sad place without all the education builds and inventiveness - I would be so sad to see that all go rom SL to a closed HE grid
Corrie Bergeron: Iggy, some of our students are 16.
Mirt Tenk: no, we need to give it away
Arwenna Stardust: *from
Iggy Strangeland: @Corrie--THAT is different.
Ann Steckel: disagree Mirt
Liz Dorland: Princeton had that - avatars and clothes and all
Corrie Bergeron: Ann, Fleep already gives all that away for the asking.
Mirt Tenk: Ann: I want a "kit" that helps edu set up an OpenSim
Lindy McKeown: you can also ask content providers to come and put stuff on your grid from their inventories
Mirt Tenk: to give away
Ann Steckel: i know she has clothes - for those who know where to get it.
Iggy Strangeland: We have to figure out a way to let minors participate in OS worlds. But remember, James is right--they can now create SL accounts.
Mirt Tenk: you can just allow them Iggy
Ann Steckel: contenrt providers are whom? who wants to do this for free?
Corrie Bergeron: Just lie about their age, I know. Not something we want to encourage...
Lindy McKeown: I disagree that everything ahs to be give away. I think people can be also making stuff to recover costs
Dan Holt: But that doesn't mean they can go to the main grid, Iggy.
Johnnie Waugh: So does the SLENZ build in SL...give away full perm clothes etc.
Mirt Tenk: but if you are a state institution be careful about what you expose them to
AJ Kelton: a) if they say they are under 18 they go to the teen grid - b) they can lie about their age anyway - so WHY is this an issue?????
Arwenna Stardust: @Iggy - they still cant create accounts on the main grid
Arwenna Stardust: exactly AJ!
Dan Holt: It's an issue, because we cannot suggest under age students go to the main grid.
Ann Steckel: Scott, is there anything outside of the castle to see?
Corrie Bergeron: afk
Iggy Strangeland: thank you, Arwenna. The earlier remarks led me to think that the LL FAQ had changed.
Johnnie Waugh: hmmm thanks Arwenna
Lindy McKeown: Scott can you talk a little about some of the intended uses for teaching?
AJ Kelton: of course - dan - thats not what we were talking about, though - we can't encourage them to lie about their age
Arwenna Stardust smiles at Iggy
Scott Diener: yes, you can explore....nothing that will rock your socks, but there is another small castle, some creative builds happening here and there
AJ Kelton: the caverns under here
Arwenna Stardust: I found a dungeon! :)
Mirt Tenk: Scott did you construct all here or move anything over?
AJ Kelton: mwah ha ha ha
Iggy Strangeland: very cool
Scott Diener: I constructed most of it here. Furniture I moved from SL (my own creations)
Liz Dorland: older students seem to be more ready to adapt to this type of virtual world anyhow
AJ Kelton: Folks - I only have about 5 minutes before I have to head off.
Liz Dorland: it's easier for them to see the value
Scott Diener: scripts had to be manually moved
Lindy McKeown: are students in here yet Scott?
AJ Kelton: I want to tahnk everyone for coming, and Scott for hosting us
Mirt Tenk: copy & paste
Arwenna Stardust: we have been experimenting with bring the SLENZ builds over here
Mirt Tenk: scripts
Scott Diener: some Lindy...not a lot yet
AJ Kelton: I think of the three places I've seen, this seems the most viable
Scott Diener: yes Mirt...cut& paste
Margaret Czart: Thank you Scott for having us
Mirt Tenk: do scripts convert w/out modification?
Ann Steckel: Thanks so much Scott!
Mirt Tenk: work the same?
Scott Diener: yes Mirt
Margaret Czart: Is it possible for us to come back and visit on our own?
Mirt Tenk: we had probs w/that summer 2008, many did not work then
AJ Kelton: you'll can stay around as long as Scott is willing to play host
Birdie Newborn: ty
Scott Diener: btw, we never exceeded 10% CPU usage, and memory usage has stayed at 800mb
Iggy Strangeland: amazing build here. Thank you for having us!
Hanno Tietgens: Thank you Scott, very encouraging
Bruce Shaw: AJ said I could spam briefly. I'm recently unemployed after 22 years as a Solaris sysadmin and developer inc. ORACLE, Perl, shell scripting. I've also done extensive building and LSL scripting inworld. If anybody's got some work for me, could you IM or bruce.shaw@shaw.ca?
Scott Diener: please feel free to explore
Jurate Stanaityte: Impressive, thank you, Scott.
Margaret Czart: Thank you AJ for arranging this
Ann Steckel: Scott, will these accounts be valid for awhile so we can comeback?
Iggy Strangeland: must run, all. I'll put the transcript online soon. Thanks again!
Arwenna Stardust: ty Iggy
Scott Diener: they are valid...period
Mirt Tenk: tc Iggy, have fun driving!
AJ Kelton: ok - so I don't need to be back up - joe?
Dan Holt: bye, Iggy.
Iggy Strangeland grins at Mirt and poofs
Scott Diener: come back any time
Ivy Innis: thank you enjoyed the conversation
James Abraham: I just tried to setup an account with an age of 13. It DOES say that you will go to the teen grid and that over 18 trying to make an account will be punished. The FAQ was a little misleading.
Margaret Czart: I think he got it AJ
Iggy Strangeland: I have it, AJ--thanks again and safe travels
Scott Diener: thanks everyone for coming