Transcript of Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: May 4, 2010
Topic: Copyright and Intellectual Property. Special Guest Stephen Wu (SL: Legal Writer)
Special Note: This program is offered for informational purposes only and is not legal advice. Please consult an attorney if you have questions about your specific situation.
Thanks to Sheila and Lolly for the photos. Join our VWER group at Flickr and add your own pictures!
AJ Brooks: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable meeting.
AJ Brooks: Our meetings are made possible by the Office of Information Technology at Montclair State University. We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour.
AJ Brooks: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.
AJ Brooks: The views and opinions of any of our special guests or visitors do not necessarily represent those who volunteer or organize these meetings,
AJ Brooks: or of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Office of Information Technology , or Montclair State University.
AJ Brooks: This is a public meeting, so we do keep and publish a transcript of what is said in local chat. For a copy of transcripts, please visit http://www.vwer.org
AJ Brooks: If you've not seen the transcripts, you should check them out - they are a great information asset.
AJ Brooks: We will be using Voice Chat for this meeting. If you are having problems hearing, please IM Margaret Michalski and she will help you.
Csteph Submariner: Hear hear
Esparanza Freese: yeah
AJ Brooks: There are also signs on the walls of the amphitheater. The most important thing is to keep your microphone muted.
AJ Brooks: Today is our Special 1st of the Month Meeting and our very special guest is Stephen Wu.
AJ Brooks: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable meeting happens each week and we continue to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
AJ Brooks: Please join the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group here in SL. You can also find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Flicker, and KoinUp, as well as on Twitter as VWER.
AJ Brooks: The Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable (VWER) has decided to make use of Google Moderator (the tool we use at our voice meetings for questions)
AJ Brooks: to help us find out what you'd like and what some of your ideas area.
AJ Brooks: We've created three (3) different Google Moderator Suggestion topics. You are invited to visit each one, make suggestions and/or vote on the suggestions that are already there.
AJ Brooks: The first is for articles for our VWER Reading Meetings - visit http://bit.ly/a1IRau.
AJ Brooks: The second is for general meeting ideas or themes - Visit http://bit.ly/dkDynw
AJ Brooks: And the final one is for those special guests you'd like to see featured or interviewed - http://bit.ly/bHVzZk
AJ Brooks: Full details can be found in this notecard giver here in the middle of the table.
Kali Pizzaro: oh er
AJ Brooks: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
Csteph Submariner: done
AJ Brooks: You are welcome to use the local chat as a back channel, but if you have a question for our guest, we will be using Google Moderator.
AJ Brooks: Google Moderator is a web based tool where you can go to add a question OR vote on questions that have already been asked.
AJ Brooks: The most popular questions will appear on the top of the list, and those are the questions I'll ask our guests in voice chat.
AJ Brooks: Please note, Stephen and I will not be monitoring local chat, so if you'd like a question asked, please post it to Google Moderator (and also vote on the other questions that are there)
AJ Brooks: There are URL givers on either side of the amphitheater floor and also behind me above the Montclair State sign.
AJ Brooks: Click on it and you will get a pop up asking you to open a web page, which will open inside the SL browser (you can also click to open it in a regular web browser)
AJ Brooks: Through this site http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44 you will ask and vote for questions. You do need a Google account to sign in.
AJ Brooks: As most of you know, my name is AJ Kelton and I am the Director, Emerging Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University in New Jersey
AJ Brooks: Our special guest today is Stephen Wu, known in SL as Legal Writer.
AJ Brooks: Hi Steve, thanks so much for joining us.
Kali Pizzaro: LW - Thanks
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: tell us about yourself
hobbs Constantine: (hobbs will be transcribing AJ so I'll do a lot of AJ says posts-- this is for the public record)
Kali Pizzaro: LW - I am a lawyer and a partner in the Silicon Valley law firm Cooke Kobrick & Wu LLP. My practice includes intellectual property and commercial litigation. My IP cases include trade secret, trademark, and copyright cases. In addition, I represent technology and startup business. I act as their outside general counsel and also help them draft and negotiate their technology agreements. I previously served as the second in-house attorney for VeriSign, Inc., where I worked on supporting its digital certification services. I am currently Chair-Elect of the American Bar Association Section of Science & Technology Law.
Kali Pizzaro: I looked into VWs in 2007 and was inspired to join SL and the SL Bar Association. I have given advice to people and businesses interested in SL. From 2009-2010, I served as President of the SL Bar Association.
Kali Pizzaro: SL at the moment is the market leader but other applications are the way forward
Kali Pizzaro: The 3D Internet is coming, and in the future, its applications will be as common as 2D websites are today.
Kali Pizzaro: So VWs and MMOs are in their infancy, but will become a part of our daily lives in the future
Olivia Hotshot: 27 on sim for record
Kali Pizzaro: I am exploring a number of new interests. For instance, I am getting involved in AI robotics and am involved in Stanford law School effort to create formal program in the area.
Kali Pizzaro: I gave advice to Ben Duranske (SL: Benjamin Noble) for his book, Virtual Law, which the ABA Section of Science & Technology Law published.
Kali Pizzaro: I have facilitated a number of bar groups and have got involved with Ben running theSL Bar association in SL
Kali Pizzaro: At the SLBA, we study the intersection between SL and Law
Kali Pizzaro: It has been a great success
Kali Pizzaro: since 2006
Kali Pizzaro: we recently created a non-profit and i also teach law
hobbs Constantine: AJ: your interests are diverse and you have an interesting background
Kali Pizzaro: i wanted to add i am on my 4 - 5th career
Kali Pizzaro: which is required these days
Kali Pizzaro: we need to re-invent ourselves
Trudy Takacs: a 2nd life!
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that reinventing ourselves is interesting, AJ himself discovered SL, and now focuses more on application of technology. Many say SL has sparked some to go in new directions.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: Was SL your first VW?
Csteph Submariner: that'll be me then..
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Yes, I was on LinkedIn and Facebook, but thought that SL is a natural extension of these applications.
Kali Pizzaro: VWs have a long way to go but represent the future of the Internet.
Kali Pizzaro: I aspire to be a legal futurist and provide strategic advice about the legal implications of cutting-edge and future technologies.
Kali Pizzaro: I recently spoke at the Bar Leadership Institute of the American Bar Association, and argued that the legal profession needs to be prepared for sweeping changes in technology. The profession is not prepared today.
Kali Pizzaro: I have seen the legal profession have trouble grappling with technology issues such as electronic discovery and digital evidence. Rapid and dramatic changes in technology may, in future decades, become overwhelming for the profession.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: dramatic pause...fascinating points!
hobbs Constantine: AJ wants to ask about the future of VWs later but let's get back to the copyright topic
Kali Pizzaro: LG - i like to think we are helpers
hobbs Constantine: AJ praises the value of lawyers
Olivia Hotshot: 31 on the sim
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: can we start with definitions? What are the differences between copyright, intellectual property
Kali Pizzaro: LG - IP is an umbrella term that refers to a number of types of protection. Copyright is one form of protection and it protects works of authorship, such as books, movies, photos, music, and software.
Kali Pizzaro: In the US, protection under copyright exists as soon as it is embodied in a tangible medium, although you have additional protections if you register your copyright.
AJ Brooks: Remember to post your questions here: http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Kali Pizzaro: A copyright gives you a bundle of rights, such as the right to make copies of the work, make derivative works, and right to perform the work.
Csteph Submariner: Hamlet was derivative in English :p
Kali Pizzaro: A work can be a design or image. Nonetheless, there are limits to copyright. For instance, you cannot copyright ideas, but only the expression of those ideas. And others can make “fair use” of your work under some circumstances.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Csteph....derived from the Klingoni, I suppose
AJ Brooks: post your questions and vote on the questions that are already there - http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Kali Pizzaro: For instance, if you summarize a work for non-profit, educational purposes, you may have the right to copy a limited amount of someone else’s work under the fair use doctrine.
Csteph Submariner: @Iggy - Greek almost certainly
Kali Pizzaro: So this allows the public to make limited use of someone’s work without breaking the law
Kali Pizzaro: You cannot copyright ideas
Kali Pizzaro: but you can protect the expression of ideas under copyright
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: <--Star Trek TOS geek, almost certainly (hence my ref)
Csteph Submariner: Live long and prosper :)
Kali Pizzaro: Although I am not a patent lawyer, I can give you an overview of patent. Patent law gives you the right to use, make, manufacture or sell products covered by a patent. By that, I mean products that use a patented method or a manufactured using a patented method. Or it may be that the patent covers the apparatus itself.
Kali Pizzaro: so a programmer may patent software under some circumstances if the programming method meets the statutory requirements.
Csteph Submariner remembers the Klingon ref
Kali Pizzaro: You have to apply to the government to receive a patent, specifically to the US Patent and Trademark Office.
Csteph Submariner: :D
Kali Pizzaro: The patent protection exists once it is issued.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Someone who practices your patented method may be liable even if that person did not know of your patent.
Kali Pizzaro: GW- Trade secrets are also protected as a form of intellectual property. Trade secret law protects information that derives independent economic value from not being generally known or ascertainable, and is protected by reasonable efforts to maintain its secrecy. The owner of a trade secret can stop other people from using it, and can obtain damages when someone misappropriates it.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- For instance, the formula for Coca Cola is a trade secret.
Kali Pizzaro: One concern about SL is that information may lose trade secret status if revealed in SL, because the Lindens have access to communications of people there, and that disclosure may eliminate the information’s status as a secret.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: better put TM after SL, Kali :)
Kali Pizzaro: Trademark law protects names, logos, business names, product names, etc. A trademark is a mark for goods. Examples include COKE, NIKE, and FORD.
Kali Pizzaro: ha
AJ Brooks: Pos your questions, or vote on those that are already posted, here - http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Kali Pizzaro: Sevice marks are marks used for offering services, such as KPMG for accounting services.
Olivia Hotshot: 35 on sim for transcript
Kali Pizzaro: You may have protection for unregistered marks in the U.S. under common law, but not in many other countries.
Kali Pizzaro: So trademark law is about protecting businesses’ brands
Kali Pizzaro: and the goodwill that goes with those brands.
Csteph Submariner: not all good...
Kali Pizzaro: A U.S. registration gives you rights throughout the U.S. even if there is no actual competition between the owner of the mark and another business seeking to use the mark in some parts of the country.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- There is a class action against Linden Research at the moment relating to trademark and copyright infringement.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Stroker Serpentine's sex-empire is Eros LLC
Kali Pizzaro: Eros argues that the Lindens have not done enough to protect IP rights in SL.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yeah--same one
hobbs Constantine: AJ refers to the lawsuit asking about Stroker Serpentine?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- In previous suits, Eros brought actions against people copying its product.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- In one case, he settled his claims against the individual defendant.
hobbs Constantine: AJ shares questions from google moderator
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and I hope I worded that precisely
Kali Pizzaro: LW- There is a section in the Copyright Act, which may be useful here.
Kali Pizzaro: However, if there is not a contract it is difficult to prove.
MonicaMarlo Martinek: :)
Kali Pizzaro: and it does not mean LL is defintely doing something illegal.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: we'll run the transcript by you for accuracy, too!
Kali Pizzaro: This is not to be considered legal advice, please.
AJ Brooks: Post your questions for our guest, or vote on those already posted, here - http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Mimi Muircastle: hi late
hobbs Constantine: (hobbs apologizes that I didn't get Iggy's questions into this chat)
hobbs Constantine: AJ reminds us to use google moderator
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Very difficult question; I am not an expert in foreign law.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: we have folks here from other countries. How does this affect international issues?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Some countries may have laws making some contract terms written by U.S. companies unenforceable.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- In addition, businesses may need to comply with foreign privacy laws.
Kali Pizzaro: bows
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: A friend here is in Scotland but creates an object in SL,
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: what law applies to that? Do we know?
Kali Pizzaro: LW – Depending on where the case is filed, the courts have their own rules about what law applies to a specific case. Many courts would enforce a contract term that says, for example in SL’s case, that California law governs a dispute.
Kali Pizzaro: However, in some cases, a court may apply the law of its own jurisdiction to some or all issues.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- It isn’t possible to give a clear answer to that question as a general matter.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks a question from Google "Can we consider virtual worlds as being covered by the Teach Act, even if not specifically named?"
hobbs Constantine: (AJ reminds us that he is not an educational lawyer)
Kali Pizzaro: LW- i am not familiar with the Teach Act. I am sorry.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks from Google: Could you outline the most important legal questions regarding virtual currency?"
AOS-HUD 3.5.184 [WEAR ME!]: - The scanner on steroids - [secondlife://Titian/135/223/351/]
AJ Brooks: Post your questions for our guest, or vote on those already posted, here - http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Well payments and banking not my area of expertise. However, people are concerned with VW transactions that implicate RL rules
Kali Pizzaro: For instance, governments are worried about money laundering in VWs.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good point--I've always seen VWs as a perfect place for money-laundering :)
Viv Trafalgar passes Iggy $10L
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: can you talk about Creative Commons and how CC fits into all of this?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia sends 10L to my account in Upsidedownia
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Creative commons - people can create copyrightable works but can
Kali Pizzaro: share it in non commercial ways.
Kali Pizzaro: CC would permit the copyright owner can share the work broadly with some limitations.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: Does CC carry the same weight in the courtroom as copyright?
Kali Pizzaro: CC has not got much play in case law; it is an evolving area.
hobbs Constantine: AJ agrees that this is a very new area
Kali Pizzaro: if you have a situation where someone received a work under a CC license
Kali Pizzaro: it would be afforded the same treatment as a non-CC license. The court would determine if the license is binding and if it is, it would ask whether the licensee made use of the work under the CC license in a way authorized by the license.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: If you create something on your own in SL, who is the legal owner?
Csteph Submariner: your soul
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: LOL such as the right not to back it up on your own machine
Kali Pizzaro: LW- The SL Terms of Service say that Lindens acknowledges you own IP rights in your works, but with some license rights to them so they do not violate your rights by displaying your works in SL.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks from Google: Could something be done to identify and assign rights to creations in SL over and above what exists? Some sort of digital rights management & assignment controls, including creative commons licenses and appropriately identified in world
AJ Brooks: Post your questions for our guest, or vote on those already posted, here - http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=3838&t=3838.44
Kali Pizzaro: LW- I think that is difficult.
Kali Pizzaro: You would need to know by whom--
Kali Pizzaro: who would undertake that system of protections?t
Kali Pizzaro: If control over the system is required, the Linden would have to implement such protections. If Linden was unwilling to implement a system like that, you may need to find a different VW that is willing to offer that kind of protection.
Kali Pizzaro: In other words, you may have to vote with your feet.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yes--here we are on their server. Let's not forget that There.com would boot you even for saying "SL" at There.
Kali Pizzaro: The lindens are in charge of SL.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks from google: What legal obligation does LL have to check intellectual property rights on goods advertised on XStreet before the goods are available to the public?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- WTell, that is part of the dispute raised by Eros in its recent suit. Eros is arguing that Linden is profiting from their sales of infringing goods.
Olivia Hotshot: Thank you for this answer!
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks from Google: Does the new TOS from LL apply retroactively?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- The new terms apply thirty days after notification of the new terms.
Kali Pizzaro: ah what it said there is a message to developers
hobbs Constantine: AJ explains that third party viewers could possibly export items out of SL
Kali Pizzaro: Under the SL policy regarding third party viewers, the developers need to build in a process to a viewer to check to see if a user is the creator of an item before the user is able to export it.
hobbs Constantine: (this is in the new TOS)
Kali Pizzaro: One thing to be aware of is that Linden can restrict what you can do by contract, but there are limits to what Linden can do.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- If their terms of service place unreasonable conditions on use
Kali Pizzaro: and the TOS terms are seen as unfair, it is more difficult for Linden to enforce restrictive terms.
Kali Pizzaro: The restrictions may be challenged as unfair or deceptive trade practices.
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks a follow-up: The language indicates that if one uses a 3rd party viewer, if the viewer has the ability to check ownership
hobbs Constantine: AJ cont'd: use of the viewer -- even if not for export-- still constitutes violation (this is AJ's posed question)
Kali Pizzaro: LW- ok, the policy on third party viewers
Kali Pizzaro: - it is directed at developers.
Kali Pizzaro: The policy doesn’t say that users are prohibited from doing the export, but rather developers must build in a check in their viewer software to ensure that the user is the creator before permitting an export.
hobbs Constantine: AJ says: this is interesting, the warning then is that this is pointed to developers of 3rd party viewers
Kali Pizzaro: The TOS don’t go as far as to say you are not allowed, as a user, to export objects when you are not the creator.
hobbs Constantine: AJ says: The user of the 3rd party viewer is not actually 'at fault' in any way in this policy then?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Yes, that is what I am seeing at the moment. This policy could have been a lot stronger in terms of restricting non-creators from exporting objects.
Raloc Dorado: I'd think this is aimed at the viewers that are specifically designed to steal content
hobbs Constantine: AJ says the cry that arose for this was for nothing possibly then
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that this stadium was created by someone else, he made customizations
hobbs Constantine: AJ says he was worried that he could not export that stadium.
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that the 3rd party viewer -- if it did not allowexport-- that would be not good.
Kali Pizzaro: LW- Yes, but if the Linden’s own software permitted non-creators to export objects, while third party viewers could not, then there might be an issue under competition (antitrust) law if that was a critical feature for users.
Kali Pizzaro: It may also rise to the level of an unfair or deceptive trade practice.
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that the LL browser does not have an export function (and there might have been some favorites there)
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that new viewer functionality might be coming, although maybe not to avoid antitrust violations
Kali Pizzaro: LW- One possibility is that they are worried about another suit from a business like Eros, claiming that Linden did not do enough to stop piracy. So Linden may be trying to tighten control over copying.
Kali Pizzaro: Or the Lindens were not thinking clearly
Kali Pizzaro: when they wrote it.
hobbs Constantine: (laughter)
Kali Pizzaro: LW Intuitively, it seems you should be able to make further copies if you own an object with rights to make copies.
hobbs Constantine: AJ says: that this issue is of concern at his Uni.
Ilene Pratt: Does work for hire come into play if you contract with someone to do building?
hobbs Constantine: AJ says: that objects are marked for no modify, no copy, etc
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks from Google: can you envisage a time when AI will need to be accorded human rights?
Kali Pizzaro: LW- I can see that possibility, although not anytime soon. I neither endorse nor dispute particular technology predictions or what the legal responses should be. But regardless of our views of when particular technologies will reach what level, we have to admit that strong, general artificial intelligence is a possibility within our lifetime. And my point is that we in the legal profession and we as a society need to prepare today for that possibility. That is what I was talking about earlier.
Csteph Submariner: If they exceed us, would we reach a position where humans are clamoring for Robot rights?
Kali Pizzaro: If technology permits robots to have intelligence that exceeds human intelligence, some humans will see robot rights as important. So we need to prepare by discussing this possibility now. It may happen within our lifetimes.
Csteph Submariner: Excellent answer
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: oooh go read it :)
hobbs Constantine: AJ asks: RE Snowcrash, is that the type of environment you are referring to
Kali Pizzaro: LW- I have not read it, unfortunately.
hobbs Constantine: juicy summer reading
Kali Pizzaro: One area in which artificial intelligence is developed is in video games. For example, video game non-player characters are becoming more sophisticated.
Kali Pizzaro: oh typos
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'll get 'em Kali
Kali Pizzaro: It depends how fast AI develops.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia claps
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: great presentation!
hobbs Constantine: AJ says that is our last word, our promise is to be on time.
Olivia Hotshot claps
hobbs Constantine: AJ knows a faculty member that has been in VW since 1999
Esparanza Freese: excellent meeting!
MonicaMarlo Martinek: Thank you so much! Keep the convo going :)
Mimi Muircastle: excellent ideas, thoughts to reflect on - thank you LW
hobbs Constantine: AJ says: you gotta read Snowcrash, you gotta read Snowcrash
MonicaMarlo Martinek: (virtually, of course.)
Margaret Michalski: Thank you!
hobbs Constantine: Aj says: it's a quick, good read
Viv Trafalgar: thank you!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good pick as well
Csteph Submariner: Read Down And Out In The Magic Kingdom
Del Hapmouche: Thank you.
Birdie Newcomb: * * * * * G R E A T S H O W * * * * *
Birdie Newcomb: * * * * E N C O R E * * * * *
MonicaMarlo Martinek: whoohoo!
Kali Pizzaro: another great meeting thanks Legal
hobbs Constantine: AJ recommends: Do androids dream of electric sheep?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Replicants deserve human rights!
Mimi Muircastle: yes, amazing and I appreciate your future thinking!
Csteph Submariner: Bravo
Zotarah Shepherd: Thank you
Olivia Hotshot: chuckles
Csteph Submariner: that and hallucinogenics
Viv Trafalgar: diamond age too!
Olivia Hotshot: Thanks so much! =)
MonicaMarlo Martinek: Hooray for Black Rock Citizens :)
Mimi Muircastle: interesting :) thanks AJ!
Raloc Dorado: Thank you Legal very interesting
Esparanza Freese: thank you Stephen!
Csteph Submariner: Thank you
LoCE99Ch8 Morpork: Excellent and thought provoking. Thank you!
Oronoque Westland: thanks for a great discussion
Sheila Yoshikawa: thank you