Transcript of Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: Jan. 19, 2010
Topic: Reading Meeting on Debra Sloan's "A Methodology for Measuring Usability Evaluation Skills Using the Constructivist Theory and the Second Life Virtual World" (link to PDF of article here)
Author's Responses to the transcript of our chat (she could not attend our meeting) appear at the end (Jump down).
Kali Pizzaro: Hi everyone, and welcome to this weeks Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable.
Kali Pizzaro: These meetings are made possible by the Office of Information Technology at Montclair State University.
Kali Pizzaro: We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour.
Kali Pizzaro: The VW Education Roundtable is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.
Grinn Pidgeon: am I the only one who turns up the volume even when we're not using voice?
Kali Pizzaro: The views and opinions of any of our special guests or visitors do not necessarily represent those who volunteer or organize these meetings, or of
Zotarah Shepherd: hehe
Kali Pizzaro: Montclair State University or the College of Humanities and Social Sciences or Office of Information Technology at Montclair State.
Kali Pizzaro: Our meetings are roundtable style, so those in the theater seats please come down and join us at the table.
Kali Pizzaro: Our magic expanding table will always have an empty seat, located closest to the ramp.
Kali Pizzaro: Our topic/theme Today is our first Reading Meeting: "A Methodology for Measuring Usability Evaluation Skills Using the Constructivist Theory and the Second Life Virtual World".
Kali Pizzaro: Article located at http://bit.ly/6bkVDf
Kali Pizzaro: This is a public meeting, so we do keep a transcript of what is said in local chat.
Kali Pizzaro: For a copy of transcripts, please visit http://www.virtualworldsedu.info/slroundtable/
Kali Pizzaro: Special thanks to our resident scribe, Iggy Onomatopoeia, for taking care of this. If you've not seen the transcripts, you should check them out - they are a great information asset.
Kali Pizzaro: Information on FUTURE MEETINGS is available from the notecard giver on the West wall of the Amphitheater.
Kali Pizzaro: We have an amazing lineup of meeting for you, with topics set (subject to change) between now and the beginning of January.
Kali Pizzaro: The VWER meeting happens each week and we are looking to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
Kali Pizzaro: Please join the VWER group. If you have problems finding it in search, here inside the amphitheater, on the Eastern wall, you will see a display
Kali Pizzaro: Clicking the display and follow the instruction in local chat on how to join the group.
Kali Pizzaro: As the group grows, there will be announcements, surveys, and decisions made that will be exclusive to the group.
Kali Pizzaro: Aside from the island we are currently on, Montclair State University also has two other educational islands adjoining to the north.
Kali Pizzaro: There are also numerous learning areas on these adjoining islands, Montclair State CHSS, which is home to our Quidditch pitch and the SL MSU Library,
Kali Pizzaro: and Montclair State CEHSADP, which is home to The Theorist Project and Wilber Middle School Library. Wander around and enjoy.
Kali Pizzaro: If you are on Facebook, please join our group there - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=44078263753&ref=share
Kali Pizzaro: Thanks to Olivia Hotshot for putting together a Flickr group for the VWER. I encourage everyone to join the group and to take pictures from our meeting and add them to the group. Its a great way to show, and grow, our community.
Kali Pizzaro: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
Kali Pizzaro: As a hint, it is better to have "local chat" open for these meetings, it will help you follow the conversation better.
Kali Pizzaro: You can find local chat by clicking COMMUNICATE in the bottom navigation bar and you'll find LOCAL CHAT as one of the tabs at the bottom of the Communicate window.
Kali Pizzaro: I'd also like to remind folks to come on down and join us around the table, there's always an open seat closest to the ramp.
Kali Pizzaro: Why don't we get started they way we usually do, by introducing ourselves. No need to wait, go ahead and type who you are, where you are, and your ties to education into local chat.
Kali Pizzaro: Evelyn McElhinney Nurse Lecturer, RN Glasgow Caledonian University.
hobbs Constantine: Heather Dodds, Math and Science Program Community Facilitator, Western Governors University,100% online remote faculty located in NY
Ignatius Onomatopoeia is Joe Essid, Dept. of Rhetoric and Communication Studies. I'm the University of Richmond's Writing Center and Writing Across the Curriculum Director. I'm now teaching my fourth class with SL. I'm part of a design team building an immersive simulation of Poe's House of Usher, to launch in Spring 2010.
Grinn Pidgeon: barbara pittman cuyahoga community college cleveland ohio
Kendra Organiser: Hi, I teach high school statistics in North Carolina - new to SL
Viv Trafalgar: Viv Trafalgar was recently a Visiting Fellow in Virtual Worlds at University of the Arts, Philadelphia, and is a builder, scripter, and interaction and games designer for Rezzable Inc. 15 years of teaching experience in writing, literature, and programming and interaction design.
Zotarah Shepherd: Hi Claudia!
Robin Mochi: Robin Ashford, George Fox University, Portland, Oregon USA
Kathryn Pleides: Kathryn French, high school librarian and edtech person
hobbs Constantine: welcome Kendra!!!!!
Margaret Michalski: Margart Czart, Research Information Specialist from the University of Illinois at Chicago.
Jarrad Voom: Willie Jackson Pierce College Lakewood Washington
Claudia Linden: Hi, sorry. lost net. windy here.
Bushido Contepomi: Simply Stephan founder of SL College of Internet Life
Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working on a curriculum project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. Part of that is an Immersive Interactive Educational build about Life-skills on an educational sim called Ralanora. I also have a build for Multiple Intelligences on Koru.
Kali Pizzaro: anyone else
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: come get a seat, all. We have the table physics acting Newtonian again
Kali Pizzaro: thanks Iggy
Firery Broome: University of Delaware
Kali Pizzaro: going once
Claudia Linden: Claudia L'Amoreaux, Educaton Programs manager, Linden Lab
Margaret Michalski: @Claudia, no worries we had table problems but Iggy came to the rescue : )
Viv Trafalgar: firery come ride the table!
Kali Pizzaro: going twice
Claudia Linden: San Francisco
Firery Broome: tables messes me up
Firery Broome: everytime
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I returned AJ's table (he's at EDUCAUSE) and he promptly crashed :)
Kali Pizzaro: sold to the man with the flying table
Viv Trafalgar: that table had issues
hobbs Constantine: lol
Kali Pizzaro: Okay the author Dr Slone cannot be here tonight but she has offered to answer any questions about the paper. If you want to ask anything direct to her please IM me. Answers will appear on one of the blogs later.
Claudia Linden: (sorry can't stay for whole session. so don't mind me tp-ing off w/out goodbyes.)
Kali Pizzaro: hopefully you have had a chance to read the paper. This is our first reading meeting so lets just see how things go
Kali Pizzaro: I have a few questions for later, but does anyone want to kick us off.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia was a good student, for once. Nice way to start these meetings, Kali
hobbs Constantine: Are we free to critique the paper or just the results/interface/SL?
Kathryn Pleides: I read the report, and wondered as I was reading it how much, if anything, had changed between when it was done in 2007 and now
Kali Pizzaro: go for it
Margaret Michalski: Well, how did you find this article?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Let's start with the findings..that would be helpful to me.
Kathryn Pleides: as far as user interface/usability goes
Kali Pizzaro: yes my thoughts
Kali Pizzaro: so first is lag time
Kathryn Pleides: Lag - varies so much from sim to sim, computer to computer, connection to connection
Ignatius Onomatopoeia was not surprised that issue one was lag, but surprised that students had so much trouble driving their avatars
hobbs Constantine: I concur a bit with Kathryn, the paper states that as of 2007 , SL has 'still aways to go in terms of heuristic issues. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%
Kendra Organiser: bear in mind who students were - most new users, I think
Trudy Takacs: it didn't say anything about the students who were gaming?
Margaret Michalski: new users yes-but the walking it self is not that difficult, the lag issue is no surprise to me either
Twang Watanabe: my students are typically new users and a few are gamers
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Kendra, true. But my first-years never report that problem after a couple hours
Twang Watanabe: same for me
Kendra Organiser: yes, but in 2007, who was a grad student? just the beginning of net gen-ers, right?
Kali Pizzaro: is lag worse recently?
Trudy Takacs: no much better, I think
Margaret Michalski: for me yes-but my computer is not the newest
Kathryn Pleides: Yeah - figuring out movement, and response sensitivity at first was a problem, but not after the first day or so. Except in high-lag situations. Was there worse lag in 2007?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: could "avatar maneuverability" be inaccurate? Was some of the problem moving related to lag? Or poor orietnation to SL and, say, TPs and LMs?
Viv Trafalgar: that's a good question
Margaret Michalski: @ Iggy, good point
hobbs Constantine: I've had some improvement in lag, but I did a major computer transplant at Xmas
Kathryn Pleides: hobbs - same here
Trudy Takacs: yes and expectations
Margaret Michalski: I don't recall them talking about orientation
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: lag has not been bad for me, even driving sim to sim.
Bushido Contepomi: Could it be that this could be quite frightening for new users as well, (Ihad not spoken to anyone for my first week here.)
Kathryn Pleides: I upgraded from a 4-yr old computer to a brand-new one and upgraded DSL tier - and saw very improved SL experience
Margaret Michalski: to me introduction to any program is crucial
Trudy Takacs: and more low prim objects now than in '07
Kathryn Pleides: Bushido - that brings up question of how we as educators can make entrance less intimidating.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Margaret, I'm just wondering if the failure to learn to move around SL might not factor in how long an orientation the students in the study received
Trudy Takacs: it is rare I run into lag these days
Zotarah Shepherd: SL runs much better for me when I remember to turn off Skype and only have a word doc open.
Trudy Takacs: has to be a huge crowd, heavy graphics, etc
hobbs Constantine: Yes bushido , I found SL a little frightening and I know Doom, the game and other online games
Kendra Organiser: I've had no orientation beyond my own exploration.
Margaret Michalski: The SL presentations at the Sloan-C conference stressed that orientatin is everything
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: my kids hit lag with wireless and laptops..which is 100% of them. I ask them to hardwire the connection and use an AC adapter, the lag goes way down
Kathryn Pleides: I would like to have seen more details on what the students were doing and seeing to get the results they reported
Kendra Organiser: sorry!
Trudy Takacs: :)
Twang Watanabe: i ask my students to go thru the NMC orientation
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: hold on re: the mic
Margaret Michalski: you can have the best course and still fail because of orientation
Twang Watanabe: i also give them some preentry material
Voice not available at your current location
Kathryn Pleides: What are the best newbie orientations around? NMC? Virtual Ability?
Zotarah Shepherd: I usually recommend the Virtual Abilities orientation.
Kali Pizzaro: I was trying to do an orientations session tonight but the student was way behind
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: we used NMC
Kali Pizzaro: because of their computer
Kali Pizzaro: i take them to our own area
Kathryn Pleides: I started with NCI and found it pretty good, but I like the VA one better when I found it. Very step by step!
hobbs Constantine: @ Kathryn, indeed, I was intrigued that the paper said" they did not evaluate personal or business sites or other landscapes not designed by Second Life developers." I was like, where did they go then?
Trudy Takacs: ha
Kali Pizzaro: good question
Trudy Takacs: yes and why the lag? was it the places they went?
Kendra Organiser: they just limited their evaluation to Sl itself
hobbs Constantine: Now that I type that, I think the author meant that only SL was evaled, not any other VW
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: the study does not note that, Trudy, but I'd like to know
Bushido Contepomi: a truly more friendly greeting upon first arrival, rather than Rezzing in a barren space with not any supportive staff/students to talk with when first adapting to the environment possibly.
hobbs Constantine: yes Kendra, thanks! I just get that now. lol
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and did students travel together? That *really* helped my last class
Kali Pizzaro: so what moving and the problem about getting stuck
Kali Pizzaro: with no instruction to get out
Trudy Takacs: again, expectations. I try to start all intros with the "this is not a game, not fast like a game" talk
Margaret Michalski: I know that I would most likely evaluate educational locations differently than the social locations
hobbs Constantine: good points @Trudy and Margaret
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: only one "false positive" about SL's appearance distracting the subjects of the study. That impressed me.
Trudy Takacs: but they always come in and try to see how fast they can fly, etc.
Margaret Michalski: I wish they would have gone in more detail about the constructivist theory
Trudy Takacs: 1st thing they explore
Margaret Michalski: it is a known fact that active is better than passive
Kali Pizzaro: IM me Margaret i have papers coming out my ears
Kathryn Pleides: I hear the "this is not a game" meme all over - but would our students respond better if it were presented as a game? Just as a virtual world game instead of a WOW style game?
hobbs Constantine: which one do you mean Iggy?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Margaret, I only know it from the work of Ken Bruffee in writing..."social constructivism." I'm new to it in other fields of study.
Viv Trafalgar: Kathryn, I've seen that work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @hobbs--one study [respondent] said:
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: SL is like a game, so no one can really get any work done.
Trudy Takacs: I don't think the response would be different, really
Viv Trafalgar: though in a game format... with game oriented goals. THis is more open ended - hard to explain that as a game
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: to me that says the respondent was a geezer like me :)
Birdie Newcomb: depends on how you define work
Kathryn Pleides: Heh - maybe we need to reconsider the definition of a game!
hobbs Constantine: ah, OK, so you mean that one specifically from the 7 false positives listed, got it
Kali Pizzaro: What about IM - how do you deal with them if you are in a class
Bushido Contepomi: what happens with most first arrivals to SL is that they are not connected with any school, or employment (like myself), and anonymity has great advantages for all the embarrassing mistakes in learning how to navigate, but it also increases the fear of not knowing who you are communicating with.
Margaret Michalski: @Iggy sorry, I guess I did not take a persons background into consideration
Claudia Linden: I just called SL a game to a very committed teen WOW gamer--figured meet him where he is...tell him about RP games in SL, and then help him see bigger pic instead of sticking with my fundamentalist This is not a game approach.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I meant, hobbs, "one student" said, not "study." Sorry for my typonese
Viv Trafalgar: @Claudia what was the reaction?
Kali Pizzaro: What about IM - how do you deal with them if you are in a class
Kali Pizzaro: do they distract you
Claudia Linden: he was interested. we talked about what's going on in SL, lots of colleges, etc.
Trudy Takacs: has he tried SL yet?
hobbs Constantine: @ Kali, do you mean that IMs in class are generally distracing?
Trudy Takacs: I'd be curious to see his reaction after you set it up like that
Claudia Linden: just met on weekend. he had not yet
hobbs Constantine: distracting*
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Claudia, I bet he'd try SL if he knows we have games + a robust community here (Orcs to slay and stuff to build)
Claudia Linden: I would point him to places where he'd have a positive engaging first exp.
Kali Pizzaro: if you have many friends and groups how do you keep focused if you are receivng Im all the time
Trudy Takacs: I don't know - but just heard a grad ed group that came in last semester - split down the middle on reaction.
hobbs Constantine: My sister who is a big WOWer nearly fell out of her chair at concept of "owning" virtual land
Trudy Takacs: I just wonder if it really matters, people react to it how they'll react
Margaret Michalski: I was wondering what you all thought about the diaries? Wouldn't a onece a week reflection be enough
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I wonder if finding community first can condition the reaction to SL?
Bushido Contepomi: but possibly it may even be better not to have a large crowd around a new resident, so they could feel free to make mistakes, instead of smothering them?
Claudia Linden: i think experiencing it as engaging on first try makes the difference. many routes to that end.
Trudy Takacs: my older sister - in her 70s played Laura Croft and Loves SL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: once my students began to travel together, the + reactions went way up
Trudy Takacs: go figure
Kathryn Pleides: Iggy - I think you've hit something there. Communities are very important in my experience of SL
Kali Pizzaro: depends on the content margaret - do you have something to write
Claudia Linden: will tead your transcript. great conversation. must fly. waves.
Kali Pizzaro: not just as te author says naming but explaining
Trudy Takacs: bye:)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: as we all said last week, the community keeps us here
Kali Pizzaro: promoting deeper learning = construtivist
hobbs Constantine: @ Margaret: I thought the students initially bucked this, so it sounds like "instructor talk" aka just do it
Trudy Takacs: yes and mentors the first week are critical, I believe
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and if "constructivist" means what it does in writing pedagogy, SL or other worlds with user-generated content are perfect places for such learning
Trudy Takacs: mentors or buddies
Viv Trafalgar: @iggy right - very
Kali Pizzaro: @ Iggy indeed
Margaret Michalski: For me SL is a learning experience everyday and if someone asked to to reflect on a particular activity I would look at it on a few days basis not daily
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Trudy--best if it's someone they know IRL already
hobbs Constantine: there are SO many versions of constructivst methods
Margaret Michalski: unless there really was something exciting one day
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'd like to know how the demographics influenced the study--these are grad students, after all.
Kathryn Pleides: Iggy - or a community they're already involved in in other online activities
Bushido Contepomi: Asking a lot of questions helps, but the best ones (questions) seem to only come out of supportive environments, it seems.
Margaret Michalski: @ hobbs, you think so?
Kali Pizzaro: 7 new to sl an d2 used sporadically
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: hmmmmmm @Kathryn...maybe Facebook / SL teamups are not a bad idea
Kali Pizzaro: so nine in all
Margaret Michalski: @hobbs which is related to this article in your opinion
Viv Trafalgar: How many of you have used a ning to coordinate an inworld community?
hobbs Constantine: @ Margaret, sorry I could be confusing this with other stuff I've read recently
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: FB could be a way to get students talking to existing SLers they know from Facebook. Then they'd "meet up" in SL to mentor the new person
Margaret Michalski: @ Kali I found it odd that they had such a difference between experience SL and new
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Viv--with you and Armada, but also briefly with Stories w/o Borders
Margaret Michalski: I would have al of one or the other
Kali Pizzaro: i found it interesting that they did not pick the search function as bieng problematic
Trudy Takacs: they said the experienced ones were sporadic use
hobbs Constantine: @Margaret-- you mean which constructivist method? YOu are asking that to me?
Trudy Takacs: which could be a few dips every several months - like being new
Margaret Michalski: @ hobbs yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Kali, I really wish I knew more about *what* they did!
Kali Pizzaro: haha
Viv Trafalgar: a FB/Ning-like mix could be a really interesting way of documenting the process - for people who want to read back
Kali Pizzaro: indeed one for the author
Trudy Takacs: I tink we need to have the author come speak
Margaret Michalski: @ Iggy, it was really just about the basics of SL. Based on the title I expected much more
Kali Pizzaro: she could not make it but will accept questions - IM me
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: "Through online lectures, readings, assignments, and discussions, students gained interfaceknowledge and understanding of heuristic evaluation principles. "
Trudy Takacs: I find the idea that it was '07 a huge difference - I've been here sine '07 and find it so different
hobbs Constantine: @Margaret: ah, OK. well this seemed to focus on the internal workings of constructivst, not on the social building or the building on prior knownledge parts of constructivist theory
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: that implies a lot of talk time before they made avatars
Kali Pizzaro: @ hobbs yes
Kathryn Pleides: Hmm, so how much time did they actually have in SL itself?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: 4 months
Kendra Organiser: @Ig - not really. They started Aug2007, right?
Trudy Takacs: that's significant
hobbs Constantine: @Margaret, so said another way, this was focused on internal talk, diaries, not on group work or prior VW knowledge
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: "before they were asked to evaluate [SL]"
Kathryn Pleides: It didn't say how many hours the students actually spent in-world though
Kali Pizzaro: however they used a reflective, experimental approach
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: nope--or what they did
Margaret Michalski: 2007 is way before my time here so maybe there were issues then that I am not aware of and should not judge them based on how it works today.
Trudy Takacs: Actually, my first reaction to the paper was, 'great idea for using SL"
hobbs Constantine: Also, there was little reference to the instructor actually engaging in anything more than minimal constructivist 'teaching'
Kendra Organiser: @ Trudy: Agree.
hobbs Constantine: Just a little in online help sessions?
Margaret Michalski: @ Trudy it was a good idea just the dept could have been more
Margaret Michalski: @ Trudy in my opinion
Bushido Contepomi: ah, the report is missing a section called "The Frustration Factor" lol where students will give up on a project if they get too frustrated.
Kali Pizzaro: ok what about some of the other results
Trudy Takacs: I've bene here since Aug '07 - it was just really getting straightened out. But there were still issues, sculpties had just come out
hobbs Constantine: lol bushido
Kali Pizzaro: Menu issues
Bushido Contepomi: :)
Trudy Takacs: I understand that it would go down weekly almost before I came in
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I loved the bit about the confusion of the "World" menu
Trudy Takacs: well, menu issues - that's a whole topics we know needs work for education
Kali Pizzaro: yes but i think you get used to it
hobbs Constantine: yes, I agree with Iggy
Trudy Takacs: can't wait for this new viewer!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: "unhelpful sounds"
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: LOL
Kali Pizzaro: mute mute mute
Kali Pizzaro: ;-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: that says a great deal about where they went
Margaret Michalski: @ iggy what was that sounds thing about? the environment noise
Trudy Takacs: lol
Kali Pizzaro: yes unhelpfull sounds
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I think the giggles, the poots, etc. in, say, the Morris/Ahern WA
Kali Pizzaro: oops spelling
Kathryn Pleides: they complained about system sounds
Ignatius Onomatopoeia got to say "poot" at a RT meeting..woo hoo
Trudy Takacs: I think those sounds have been more hidden since '07
Kali Pizzaro: menus popping
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: true, Trudy. Many estate managers can control that now (and know how)
Margaret Michalski: The noises don't disturb me unless I am at a meeting or something
Trudy Takacs: I always keep them low to off.
Margaret Michalski: just learning in SL it would not be a problem
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I was surprised that none of them were offended by adult content
Kali Pizzaro: yes
Trudy Takacs: @Margaret - I can't focus with a lot of sounds, pop ups, etc.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: one of my students didn't like shopping b/c of the skin pics--naked avis
Kali Pizzaro: nocks that on the head ;-)
hobbs Constantine: but Iggy it does say where they went
Viv Trafalgar: have you seen the movies lately?
Jarrad Voom: I am surprise when anyone is offended my adult content
Margaret Michalski: @ iggy that goes back to the question of where did they go
Kali Pizzaro: knocks
Viv Trafalgar: not here - in RL
Trudy Takacs: @Ignatius - very good point, not even mentioned
hobbs Constantine: does not say
Kathryn Pleides: and what did they do where they went?
Trudy Takacs: @why Jarrad
Trudy Takacs: @Jarrad, why does that surprise you?
Kathryn Pleides pictures grad students being spread across several sims while attempting to race cars across a sim boundary
Jarrad Voom: It seems simple to me if you don't like - ignore it
Bushido Contepomi: people will bash something if they can't get it to work (verbally too;), but if they read the instructions after much frustration of realizing how little they know about it, then by fixing the approach to the problem at hand, student's become empowered, instead of resentful.
hobbs Constantine: 15 on the sim, did I do that right?
Trudy Takacs: well, that's a different topic but as a teacher of young women, I don't like the objectification of women here
Trudy Takacs: but
Kali Pizzaro: it is important to acknowledge that overall the students rated SL as a positive experience
Trudy Takacs: in '07 - you couldn't help see it
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Trudy, I guess they didn't go to social spaces or shops
Trudy Takacs: I remember I was at a generic mall and ran into really aggressive, porn
hobbs Constantine: hmm, me thinks Bushido is speaking from experience?
Trudy Takacs: I don't seek porn on the Internet, not interested in it here
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Trudy, if it violates TOS, report it
Margaret Michalski: It would have been interesting to know where they went just for example purposes. Maybe those places are still around or maybe not
Trudy Takacs: oh I'm talking pre-seperation
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but some other apects of their findings surprised me: "no white space"
Trudy Takacs: yes - that was funny!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: my students never complained about notecards, small type, etc.
Trudy Takacs: but thinking of it, I kind of agree. Some days my eyes are strained
Raloc Dorado: Yes Trudy even shopping for clothes you could easily run into quite nasty things unexpectedly
Kathryn Pleides: Trudy - but some stores still have rather offensive depictions of women.
Trudy Takacs: @Raloc - and if you were trying to convince administrators to use SL! Wow, deal breaker
Trudy Takacs: @Kathryn - I agree
Raloc Dorado: indeed
Kathryn Pleides: So even w/Zindra re-located, it's possible to run into things rather unexpectedly
Trudy Takacs: and when I'm teaching a mixed class and the guys talk about the hot babes in front of the women
Margaret Michalski: did the article mention the ae of the students? that could also be a factor
Margaret Michalski: age
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: well, I just winged about that very thing, Trudy, in my blog. What the Lindens post on the "popular" links to Xstreet from the Web portal
Bushido Contepomi: It is hard to talk about sexual psych sexual preference here in SL amoungst people we do not know, but I agree that graphic porn should not be in plain view of anyone who has not requested it.
Trudy Takacs: Everyone says - well it is in RL but I wouldn't bring a Victoria's Secrete catalog to pass around in my class
Trudy Takacs: it 'd be kind of stupid, really - I'd never get their attention!
Kathryn Pleides: @Trudy - yes. Or for that matter, look at the default female avatars
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Viv got after me, tho: http://iggyo.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-sells-and-second-life.html
Viv Trafalgar: ::blushes::
Viv Trafalgar: !@iggy i didn't mean to ... just clarifying a point
Viv Trafalgar: with LOTS of words
hobbs Constantine: @ Trudy, I find that all difficult
Trudy Takacs: I just had an administrator
Ignatius Onomatopoeia grins at Viv...we needed a good discussion on those points. It was refreshing, like a point made at a faculty meeting. The term "roleplay" is a loaded one, as well. I'm glad you brought it up!
Viv Trafalgar: @Trudy - that's one of my biggest issues - there are so many good things being created that don't push buttons - why not feature some of that
hobbs Constantine: At my university we are empowered to eval dispositions online, that would cause a Major STOP in my book and I'd have a talk with that class right then and there about respecting women
Trudy Takacs: e-mail a screen grab of an X-Street strip skirt or something - as most poplular - wanted to know if I thought it was a little risque? It just makes my job more difficult.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but back to the article...I agree with Kathryn. Why didn't anyone complain about the limited, and sexist, avatar choices?
hobbs Constantine: or than everyone is thin and young?
Kali Pizzaro: this was included in the false positives
Trudy Takacs: Well, so on several levels, it does bother me the adult content. . . :)
Kathryn Pleides: As I understand, the avatar choices were even more limited then than now?
Kali Pizzaro: fearof the willies or danger from predators
Trudy Takacs: and the guys are being objectified as sexual toys as well
Ignatius Onomatopoeia was not an A student, Kali--sorry I didn't see that. But why a "false positive"?
Kali Pizzaro: indeed
Trudy Takacs: so. . .
Kali Pizzaro: 4 identified this
Trudy Takacs: I have teen SL and adult
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Kali, say more about that fear. Didn't get ID'ed in the study? Or did 4 say that?
Kali Pizzaro: so 4 out of nine but it was deemed a false positive
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'd ask our author--"false" b/c she doesn't consider it a usability issue?
Trudy Takacs: I'd love a follow up - to see how many continued using SL, just curious
Kali Pizzaro: sorry 4%
Bushido Contepomi: It is true, when I dress as a woman here, I do get stalked, and as a man some females do just play with us.
Kathryn Pleides: @Kali - yes, good point. 4 of 9 is a significant number.
Trudy Takacs: or see what they thought of their conclusions now
hobbs Constantine: you had it right the first time Kali
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'd say it is, if not a technical issue a social/moral one. I had a conservative Muslim girl drop the class last year.
Kendra Organiser: false b/c experts didn't see that as an issue
Kathryn Pleides: I wonder if any kept with SL or came back to it?
Kali Pizzaro: oops so i did
Kali Pizzaro: 23.22 here ;-)
Trudy Takacs: I mean, someone said that my students will see all of this on the street outside their computer lab
Trudy Takacs: so. . . we can't make it so vanilla it isn't RL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: okay, false positives can include "observations
based on the personal preference of the evaluators but that were not usability problems, problems that reflected the misjudgments of the evaluator, system defects due to hardware configuration, and unclear or confusing statements"
Bushido Contepomi: SL offers us less scrapes and bruises that RL
Kali Pizzaro: well i think we have to explain it is there. i ask my students to make an alt if they want to go anywhere else (not our island)
Trudy Takacs: but - unless it is a class about such things, like gender or sex
Kali Pizzaro: indeed
Trudy Takacs: @Kali, I do also
hobbs Constantine: @Trudy, I don't take an all or nothing tack (I'm onot saying you did) but I do agree that we must instruct on the wise and unwise in SL
Kali Pizzaro: then it is for educational purposes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I disagree that usability does not include "personal preference" but I'm thinking like a humanist faculty member.
Kali Pizzaro: ah
Margaret Michalski: I agree with Iggy
hobbs Constantine: oh, hugs to Iggy
Trudy Takacs: @hobbs, I didn't take issue at all, really.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: If SL looks ugly or sexist to me, and I don't return, it does not serve my needs
Margaret Michalski: you use it because of preference
Margaret Michalski: like people using pc over max
Margaret Michalski: macs
Trudy Takacs: so, do you think we can get the author of the paper to come speak to us? lol
Kali Pizzaro: only one person mentioned condescending avatars
Kali Pizzaro: she was interested but could not come
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it was a big issue in my classes, but different field of study
Bushido Contepomi: I also allow myself to be played with of course, because only I could choose to try it, can only take responsibility, for what I agree to try.
Margaret Michalski: @ Kali maybe we can get her to come to the next reading meeting as a follow-up
Kali Pizzaro: so we are nearly out of time. might not have time for that new paper, different author
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'd love to see more studies of this sort done--to interrogate the SL interface
Kendra Organiser: @Kali - if author invited, please share transcript with her
Kali Pizzaro: yes wwe are
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and the culture, too. We don't have a lot of undergrad reactions published, do we?
Kendra Organiser: @Iggy - yes!
Kali Pizzaro: she will aslo answer questions IM me and she will answer on one of our blogs
Kali Pizzaro: ok so nearly out of time any more comments
Trudy Takacs: by the time she answers all these ?'s, she'll be writing a new paper!
Margaret Michalski: @ iggy my project sort of fits into that but no luck in the near future for results
Kali Pizzaro: haha
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Kali, I'll post the Q&A on the transcript, too
Kali Pizzaro: ok cool thanks IGGY
Kathryn Pleides: From what was report last week, it sounds like there's a major overhaul in the interface in the works.
Trudy Takacs: well, I enjoyed reading the paper. Thanks for the conversation all
Margaret Michalski: "unanswered questions"
Kendra Organiser: thanks for helping me learn more, everyone!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia needs to do something extra...I'll be gone for 4 weeks starting next T. Try not to burn the place down around AJ.
Kali Pizzaro: next paper will be on the VWER sites soon
Margaret Michalski: Thanks kali
hobbs Constantine: If she's going to read this, then a shout-out to her for even attempting this research, it must have been hard to swing back in 2007.
Trudy Takacs: ha
Bushido Contepomi: yes, this was a great talk, ty all:)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: nice discussion, Kali. I look forward to our next reading meeting
Margaret Michalski: for a first meeting like this I think it went very good
Kathryn Pleides: Thanks everyone; this was a cool talk!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: what's our topic for next week?
Margaret Michalski: I believe it is what we want
Jarrad Voom: Yes this was a success.
Margaret Michalski: Aj moderator
Margaret Michalski: I think
Trudy Takacs: Feb is the tour of Reaction Grid
Trudy Takacs: that'll be interesting
Margaret Michalski: @ trudy but that is on a Monday not Tuesday
Raloc Dorado: oh nice!
Kathryn Pleides: D'oh, must check access there - haven't been on since getting new 'puter for Christmas
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yes, "What do we want?" next week. Dang I'd love that one. Viv's already making me a "Curse of the Mummy" Avatar. That's what I want!
Trudy Takacs: Well bye all - oh glad you pointed that out @Margaret
Margaret Michalski: we will still have a regular Tuesday meeting here
Viv Trafalgar: hahahaha
Kali Pizzaro: mmm will be on fb soon
Trudy Takacs: ha:)
Viv Trafalgar: bye for now everyone! this was great
COMMENTS: Many of the issues/questions were related. For instance, the questions about experience and the difficulty students had with SL were discussed in the same realm as age of the students. One person comments, "I'd like to know how the demographics influenced the study--these are grad students, after all."
RESPONSE: Let me tell you a little about the students. They are in the School of Library and Information Science (LIS). The course is in "Information science" rather than "Library science". So, the student had a bit more technological experience than others in our program. However, students typically come to our program late in life. LIS has traditionally been a second career field, when students finally choose what they really like ;-) But, of course, I'm prejudice. Currently, in one class of 20, I have three practicing attorneys, four teachers and students from other fields like real estate, psychology and communications. Only six of the 20 are fresh out of undergraduate school. I'm in my late forties and always have a few students who are older than I am. So, we have Baby Boomers, Net 'Geners and everything in-between. The 2007 class was no different. Few, if any, of them were gamers. In fact, I had two students speak with disdain that SL was a big game. In the fall of 2007, the students had not yet seen the value of SL space so had not spent much time there. I read some frustration about the time taken to move the avatar. In all, I think a semester was not long enough, even with orientations and discussions. I think lag time also had some affect on avatar movement. The lag time certainly contrasted with the statement, "The system performs ...actions too quick to cancel."
QUESTION/COMMENT: "I'm just wondering if the failure to learn to move around SL might not factor in how long an orientation the students in the study received"
RESPONSE: It certainly might have played a role. Students had access to instructions, introductions, discussions presentations and an orientation, but still had problems. I think, however, that the major problem is that the course is all online-no face-to-face meetings, except in SL. This made orientation difficult because the amount of reading students must do goes up exponentially in an online environment. We have face-to-face classes here, but the Fall 2007 course was not one of them. I don't care much for the total online environment because so much gets lost in translation. Also, older computers were a main source of both lag time and frustration. On campus, students would have been able to use more powerful computers.
QUESTION/COMMENT: I would like to have seen more details on what the students were doing and seeing to get the results they reported
RESPONSE: I don't have a whole lot of detail on actual sites, except that some went to dances and shopping while others to lectures and other events. Most had no agenda or idea what to do beyond the instructions given in class.
QUESTION/COMMENT: "I was intrigued that the paper said" they did not evaluate personal or business sites or other landscapes not designed by Second Life developers." I was like, where did they go then?
RESPONSE: Our evaluation was of the basic SL interface. Students were encouraged to examine SL system functions, protocols, menus, messages, etc. Evaluating individual spaces would have been far too much to focus on in one semester. SL was more than enough.
QUESTION/COMMENT: "... and did students travel together? That *really* helped my last class."
RESPONSE: No, the students did not travel together, but I like the idea. I will definitely try that if we ever evaluate SL again.
QUESTIONS/COMMENTS: "For me SL is a learning experience everyday and if someone asked to reflect on a particular activity I would look at it on a few days basis not daily." Also, "Hmm, so how much time did they actually have in SL itself?'
RESPONSE: The students had between early August and early December to visit SL. When reading the diaries, I noticed that most wrote 3-4 times per week. Those who wrote fewer entries wrote more and vice versa. Of course, I cannot tell how many hours they actually spent there.
QUESTION/COMMENT: "I really wish I knew more about *what* they did!"
RESPONSE: One of the forms I had the students complete consisted of 9 pages of structured questions and comments. Here, in addition to diary entries, is where I learned where they went and what they did during the semester. The bulk of the time was spent learning about Second Life itself. Hence, they would go to, say, Orientation Island, evaluate it for a period of time and move on. It took most of them a while to get around to shopping, attending parties, going to events or having other "fun". Both the diaries and evaluation forms made for good reading.
QUESTION/COMMENT: "I was surprised that none of them were offended by adult content."
RESPONSE: I think I might know the answer to that one. For people in the LIS field, one person's dirty word is another person's information. Rather than expressing offense to someone else's opinion, we would more likely present the "other side" or simply relate what happened to us.
QUESTION/COMMENT: "Why didn't anyone complain about the limited, and sexist, avatar choices?" "I'd ask our author--"false" b/c she doesn't consider it a usability issue?"
RESPONSE: No, I don't consider "ugly" or "offensive" avatars to be a usability issue. Though there were opinions about the avatars, there was no indication that the look of the avatars interfered with students' ability to properly utilize SL. Further, the students mentioned that "some" avatars were condescending. Thus, others were not. It's a matter of opinion. That is not to say, however, that the avatars cannot be improved upon.