Transcript of July 28, 2009 Second Life Roundtable Discussion
Topic: Open Forum
Photos by Sheila Yoshikawa & Olivia Hotshot (visit Olivia's blog and Flickr photostream). See Olivia's Flickr group for the SLER to add your own photos.
Links Mentioned:
AJ Brooks: Hi everyone, and welcome to this weeks SL Education Roundtable.
Angelia Halsey: hello all
Mimi Muircastle: Thanks, Iggy - your URL would be nice too :)
AJ Brooks: These meetings are made possible by the Office of Information Technology at Montclair State University.
AJ Brooks: We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour. Our meeting today is an open forum.
Kali Pizzaro: oh interesting AJ ;-)
AJ Brooks: The SL Education Roundtable is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education.
Cotton Dover: Hi Olivia
AJ Brooks: The views and opinions of any of our special guests or visitors do not necessarily represent those who volunteer or organize these meetings, or of
AJ Brooks: Montclair State University or the College of Humanities and Social Sciences or Office of Information Technology at Montclair State.
AJ Brooks: Our meetings are roundtable style, so those in the theater seats please come down and join us at the table.
AJ Brooks: Our magic expanding table will always have an empty seat, located closest to the ramp.
AJ Brooks: This is a public meeting, so we do keep a transcript of what is said in local chat.
AJ Brooks: For a copy of older transcripts, please visit http://sler-transcripts.wikispaces.com and for more recent transcripts, please visit http://www.virtualworldsedu.info/slroundtable/
Alan Sandalwood: Hello all
Mimi Muircastle: Hi Alan
AJ Brooks: Special thanks to our resident scribe, Iggy Onomatopoeia, for taking care of this. If you've not seen the transcripts, you should check them out - they are a great information asset.
AJ Brooks: Information on FUTURE MEETINGS is available from the notecard giver on the West wall of the Amphitheater.
AJ Brooks: The Program Committee is hard at work to bring you the schedule for September through the end of the year.
AJ Brooks: Special thanks to Iggy, Margaret, Olivia, and Kali for their work on that.
AJ Brooks: I would like to mention that our special guest next week with be Ashraf R. Al-Allaf (SL:
Ashy Viper). Ashy is an educator working in Iraq, in the English Department of Mosul University.
Ashy Viper: hello everyone
Zotarah Shepherd: Hello AJ
Zotarah Shepherd: Hello Iggy
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: welcome back, Ashy
AJ Brooks: This promises to be an intriguing peek behind the curtain into a world most of us can only just imagine. I'm looking forward to the interview and hope to see you here.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Hi Zo!
Fred Brecher: Hey, Iggy.
Mimi Muircastle: yes, welcome back Ashy :)
AJ Brooks: On August 18th our meeting will be themed around case studies. The SLER Case Study Working Group has already meet once and been hard at work via email (and google docs)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Heya Fred--isn't Usher looking good?
EricaAlves String: Hello here :)
AJ Brooks: Join us on the 18th for more information on what could be the start of a valuable and important resource for the community.
EricaAlves String: Hello there :)
Fred Brecher: Sweet.
AJ Brooks: I'd like to thank the Case Study Working Group: Alan, Dusty, Joy, Mimi, Pipsqueak, Spiral, and Zotarah.
ian Bartavelle: Hy
AJ Brooks: The SL Education Roundtable meeting happens each week and we are looking to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
Ashy Viper: ty Iggy
AJ Brooks: Please join the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE group. If you have problems finding it in search, here inside the amphitheater, on the Eastern wall, you will see a display
AJ Brooks: Clicking the and follow the instruction in local chat on how to join the group.
AJ Brooks: As the group grows, there will be announcements, surveys, and decisions made that will be exclusive to the group.
AJ Brooks: Aside from the island we are currently on, Monclair State University also has two other educational islands adjoining to the north.
AJ Brooks: There are also numerous learning areas on these adjoining islands, Montclair State CHSS, which is home to our Quidditch pitch and the SL MSU Library,
AJ Brooks: and Montclair State CEHSADP, which is home to The Theorist Project and Wilber Middle School Library. Wander around and enjoy.
AJ Brooks: If you are on Facebook, please join our group there - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=44078263753&ref=share
AJ Brooks: Thanks to Olivia Hotshot for putting together a Flickr group for the SLER. I encourage everyone to join the group and to take pictures from our meeting and add them to the group. Its a great way to show, and grow, our community.
enzo Tungsten: omg! I'm getting another lap dance from Ashy!
AJ Brooks: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similiar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: welcome to SL
AJ Brooks: As a hint, it is better to have "local chat" open for these meetings, it will help you follow the conversation better.
AJ Brooks: You can find local chat by clicking COMMUNICATE in the bottom navigation bar and you'll find LOCAL CHAT as one of the tabs at the bottom of the Communicate window.
AJ Brooks: I'd also like to remind folks to come on down and join us around the table, there's always an open seat closest to the ramp.
enzo Tungsten: Deja vu
AJ Brooks: Why don't we get started they way we usually do, by introducing ourselves. No need to wait, go ahead and type who you are, where you are, and your ties to education into local chat.
AJ Brooks: I am AJ Kelton, Director of Emerging Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University
AJ Brooks: and the Coordinator of the Second Life Project for the College of Education and Human Services, also at MSU. We're located in northern New Jersey, just fourteen miles from midtown Manhattan.
Grinn Pidgeon: Barbara Pittman, Cuyahoga Community College, Cleveland, Ohio. Faculty Development/Instructional technology http://slurl.com/secondlife/Outreach/221/206/28
Ignatius Onomatopoeia is Joe Essid, Dept. of Rhetoric and Communication Studies. I'm the University of Richmond's Writing Center and Writing Across the Curriculum Director. I've taught 3 classes in writing or lit with SL.
Eliasdehart Sixpence: Casey Ashe, LRC Supervisor at Tulsa Community College and KIM Monday handler
Olivia Hotshot: Ann Steckel, California State University, Chico - Tech Consultant & educator
hobbs Constantine: Heather Dodds, Science Program Community Facilitator, Mentor, Western Governors University
Kali Pizzaro: Nurse Lecturer and Nurse Scotland
MLani Montgomery: Rinda Montgomery Conwell, Assistant Superintendent, North Central Education Service District, Oregon
JohnnyMak Walpole: John Makevich, College of the Canyons, Santa Clarita, CA - Instructional Design Coordinator
Aquiel Aero: Judy Kelly, henry Ford Community college, Biology faculty
JeanClaude Vollmar: I'm JC, Jeff Le Blanc in RL, and work at the University of Northwestern Ohio as their VP for IT.
Jennette Forager: Janalee Redmond, The Epoch Institute, Bethesda, MD
Mimi Muircastle: Mimi Muircastle , retired middle school principal & on the case study committee
Hattie Haystack: Gail Hanson Brenner, Clinical Nursing Instructor, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
Sheila Yoshikawa: Sheila Webber, Sheffield University, UK
Cotton Dover: Cotton Dover, Professor of Education, Teacher Preparation California State University, Chico
Lizzy Saintlouis: instructional designer at Georgia State University
enzo Tungsten: Bill Stewart, LLU Computer Center, Houston and Computer Literacy USA
Alan Sandalwood: Alan Haywood Education and technology, EFL, Brasil
Angelia Halsey: Linda Gilmore, DeKalb Technical College, Georgia, psychology instructor
Margaret Michalski: Margaret Czart, University of Illinois at Chicago, Research Information specialist .
Xeon Scribe: University of edinburgh postgraduate
AgileBill Firehawk: "Agile"Bill Krebs - I teach software engineering in 3d. Agile Dimensions, LLC, North Carolina
Olivia Hotshot: OPEN SEATS BY THE RAMP FOLKS.
Profdan Netizen: I'm Dan Holt, professor at Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI. I teach writing--first year composition and creative writing. Have taught online for 12 years, this fall my first class use of SL.
Fred Brecher: is Fred Hagemeister, Instructional Technology troublemaker at the University of Richmond
Dusty Artaud: Randi Kopp, Marketing Consultant, Kidsbridge Tolerance Museum on the campus of The College of New Jersey
Alan Sandalwood: @Sheila. Go Sheffield
AJ Brooks: plenty of room at the tables, folks up in the theater come on down and join us
AJ Brooks: empty seats closest to the ram
Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. I am working on an Immersive Interactive Educational build about Life-skills. And I am currently terraforming and building an educational sim called Ralanora. I still need some BOD officers for the non-profit too.
AJ Brooks: anyone who has not introduced yet?
AJ Brooks: going once....
Genesis Waydelich: Andre Genesini, Brazil, Researcher from Pontificia Universidade Católica de São Paulo, administrator of the SL space of the Brazilian Distance Education Association
Katya Anatine: I'm at Saint Louis University - Educational Studies
Zeke Turbo: @mrich1911
AJ Brooks: Andre, did we meet when I was down there?
Genesis Waydelich: Yes, AL!
AJ Brooks: has everyone introduced themselves?
AJ Brooks: ok - so, lets get started
AJ Brooks: as we saw last week - anything can happen at an open forum
AJ Brooks: and I hope you'll all be here next week for my interview with Ashy
AJ Brooks: I'm excited, I think he is too
AJ Brooks: and we have a wonderful slide show to share with you
Mimi Muircastle: so are we :)
AJ Brooks: I have a question about content
AJ Brooks: and IP
AJ Brooks: If I create something for MSU
AJ Brooks: If I build the building, let this amphitheater
AJ Brooks: who owns it?
Zotarah Shepherd: The college
AJ Brooks: quiet group
Profdan Netizen: Here at Lansing CC, the college would own it.
Lizzy Saintlouis: work product?
AJ Brooks: yes
Grinn Pidgeon: You do if your college doesn't pay for your account or tools
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: That's my assumption for House of Usher. Fred's helping pay for it, so he gets a copy of my textures and scripts
AJ Brooks: but if the college owns the island
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: UR owns the simulation
AJ Brooks: and they are paying my hours
Olivia Hotshot: If paid by the institution to construct it for them - the institution. If done for curriculum, then both you and the institution. If done provately, but used by your students - you.
Kali Pizzaro: MSu and intellectual copyright is yours
Alan Sandalwood: I think it may also depend on your employment contract.
Genesis Waydelich: what is MSU?
Olivia Hotshot: Montclair State Univ
Genesis Waydelich: ok, thank you
EricaAlves String: thanks too
Olivia Hotshot: thought that was my typo AJ =)
AJ Brooks: so - is the idea of ownership so clear?
hobbs Constantine: no
Kali Pizzaro: you should have the right to talk and publish about your build
AJ Brooks: but should I have a right to a copy of it?
Kali Pizzaro: and how you use i
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: or make a copy if you made the textures, say
AJ Brooks: and should the U be able to reuse it if I leave?
Kali Pizzaro: yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: just like a course syllabus
Grinn Pidgeon: If you pay for your own account and do not get paid to build--are not requested to build--the stuff is yours
AJ Brooks: or pick it up and move it to another world if they want
Kali Pizzaro: yes but still have your name on it
Margaret Michalski: don't you have to keep in mind the issue of creator vs. owner?
Marc Rexen: Copyright is retained by Faculty where I am...and for staff, it is retained by the University.
Kali Pizzaro: no
Lizzy Saintlouis: At GSU we solve the issue by having an admin avatar do all the building
hobbs Constantine: I agree with Iggy, what's the diff between SL and RL for academic rights?
AJ Brooks: I love this group
Grinn Pidgeon: when I lost my job, I took my purchased and most of my built stuff
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Marc, I threatened to quit over that issue...I'm in a staff job with faculty status
Fred Brecher: I think there are 2 analogs to FL - (1) copyright of the creative content and on the other hand (2) like buildings, they are owned by the people paying for the construction, so maybe it should be that the university owns it with nonexclusive rights in with the developer could/should retain the original model.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Richmond made it clear that faculty retain rights to IP...I think staff should, too. But I'm a radical.
Grinn Pidgeon: my school bought the land and didn't ask me to do anything on it
AJ Brooks: is this a model that is replicable in the non-virtual world?
Marc Rexen: It is a tricky area...we solved it for Distance Ed. by negotiating explicit contracts for rights to content prepared.
Grinn Pidgeon: no
Zotarah Shepherd: That is really a legal question and should have an attorney to answer it.
Sheila Yoshikawa: Strictly speaking I think my uni owns the intellectual property rights in my lectures and other material created for the work I am paid to do (e.g. teaching courses) and although it is custom for me to be able to take stuff with me when I move universities, I think strictly speaking they could stop me
Marc Rexen: We did, which is why we ended up with contracts with the Faculty.
AJ Brooks: i am a full-time employee
hobbs Constantine: I won't answer any more of AJ's questions without my lawyer. ;-)
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
AJ Brooks: and although they don't tell me what to do or build, doing and building are part of my job (only one part)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Zo, once it is in university policies, it becomes a legal issue. I think we are talking about how we write that policy beforehand.
Grinn Pidgeon: what about something you build one month and take into your inventory next month to replace with something else?
Lizzy Saintlouis giggles
Ashy Viper: Hi again everyone
AJ Brooks: what about something you buy and its non-trans?
Margaret Michalski: Once you buy then you are the owner
AJ Brooks: Hobbs, talk to Iggy about Pappy becoming your lawyer
Fred Brecher: Hey, Ashy.
Profdan Netizen: What happens with software you buy, AJ?
AJ Brooks: yes - but what if I use U $ to buy it?
AJ Brooks: well - I have to uninstall it
AJ Brooks: and they can reuse the license
Olivia Hotshot: And, what about things built by those who die - doe the Lindens own what you build? Does the university? Does it go into ether? (so to be morbid) Do we need to include this stuff in our wills?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: for the record, Pappy Enoch is a wonderful attorney. Who needs a license!
Lizzy Saintlouis: considering how little stuff costs in SL, I don't think it's a real big issue
Kali Pizzaro: apart from the legal side there is a bit of a moral issue here. i would argue. if it is something you have worked a long time on you should be recognised for your work
AJ Brooks: the cost is not the issue at all
Eliasdehart Sixpence: it is a contractual question though on one level
Whack Oh: if it is University money. do they own your Avatar?
Kali Pizzaro: dead or alive haha
Sheila Yoshikawa: I think this is why it is good practice to get an admin avatar that is "owned" by the uni and who buys stuff, and is driven by whoever - not that we do that
AJ Brooks: good question, Whack
AJ Brooks: I would sue to keep my avatar if I had to
Lizzy Saintlouis: yup, they own the one that buys everything
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Kali--keep a copy. Use it when you change jobs. Chances are, at this stage of VWs, in a few years the folks who recall your build at your school will be gone.
AJ Brooks: and its one of the reasons I stopped it being a paid account
Kali Pizzaro: true Iggy
AJ Brooks: if they are not paying the account, they can't claim rights to it
AJ Brooks: so Aj is not a paid account, but he's mine.
AJ Brooks: I'm mine?
AJ Brooks: LOL
MLani Montgomery: giggles
Eliasdehart Sixpence: @ AJ - good thinking. But do you have an account which is paid?
Marc Rexen: The TOS says so...:)
Eliasdehart Sixpence: an Alt?
AJ Brooks: MSU does not pay for any account of mine, no
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I don't want this to sound arrogant, but around this table we "get this" much better than most policy makers at our schools. By and large, they don't understand VWs or user-generated content.
Marc Rexen: Correct Iggy...we're here to "make the mistakes, so others don't."
AJ Brooks: [transcript note: 41 people (and 1 bot)]
Ignatius Onomatopoeia high-fives Marc
Eliasdehart Sixpence: if a person is concerned about this then delete everything before leaving the institution including the avatar and start over
Kali Pizzaro: bot who
AJ Brooks: anyone ever have to deal with IP issues and their work?
Eliasdehart Sixpence: not very acceptable though
AJ Brooks: Elisa! WHAT???
Eliasdehart Sixpence: just an idea of an extreme response
Whack Oh: Avatar Suicide?
AJ Brooks: I would just as soon cut off a limb then not have AJ Brooks - ok, well, maybe not that far, but you get it
AJ Brooks: LOL @whack
Marc Rexen: Just a variant of the "Prof who taught a course and whether he leaves his/her materials for the next instructor."
Olivia Hotshot: I would never delete Olivia! *shocked and Aghast!*
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: outside SL--yes. A student had to pull a photo from his wiki page after a cease-and-desist from a photographer at the NY Times contacted us.
Aquiel Aero: @ AJ, do you mean like getting IT to open the ports for sl
Dusty Artaud: if typist is owner of say SL MSU and typist dies or disappears (hope not) MSU the real life entity has no rights to this place? Goes poof?
Eliasdehart Sixpence: I have deleted two accounts so far but would be hard to delete this one
AJ Brooks: No - MSU has full rights, they would have to claim it though since I am the avatar that owns it, per se
Marc Rexen: The Google "dead owner," grab...we should hear sometime this year.
AJ Brooks: there is no way for an "institution" to own a sim, an avatar must own it
Katya Anatine: I know of a professor who designed and then copyrighted the banner that they used for the student newspaper that he advised. It was a mess.
Kali Pizzaro: again i think it is not about others using the content just giving recognition to the person who created it
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'd say avatars and course materials are different animals..I want folks to steal my syllabi and other IP that I put out on the Web.
AJ Brooks: but since I got it in the name of the inst and they pay the bill each year, it would not be an issue I'm sure
Profdan Netizen: Intriguing question--avatar is part of one's self, how can institution own any more than they own you?
Gemini Unplugged: eh .. excuse me
Gemini Unplugged: this my first time to attend
AJ Brooks: owning an avatar can be akin to slavery
AJ Brooks: Welcome Gemini
Gemini Unplugged: thank you
Kali Pizzaro: Hi
Gemini Unplugged: :-)
Profdan Netizen: Then again--sometimes I feel like I'm owned by LCC!!!!!
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
Gemini Unplugged: do you all belong to the same school or uni?
Marc Rexen: The institution "pays" for access to the work product of the AV during the contract year...just like they "pay you" in RL.
AJ Brooks: oh goodness, no
Kali Pizzaro: nooooo
Zotarah Shepherd: Not at all Gemini
AJ Brooks: we're from all over the world
Marc Rexen: I see no issue with me owning an AV, but having the institution pay it's freight for the year I'm "using it on their behalf."
AJ Brooks: from the west coast of the US to Iraq! And everywhere in between
Gemini Unplugged: oh .. I am interested in knowing how you were able to use SL for training , teaching or coaching
Ashy Viper: thanks for that AJ
Marc Rexen: It would be like free lunches, or housing...only available during the contract period.
Alan Sandalwood: and south of that as well
AJ Brooks: Marc, I think there ARE issues there
AJ Brooks: if they pay the membership
hobbs Constantine: Wall Street Journal article RE: online estate plan http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124796142202862461.html
AJ Brooks: they own your avatar
Kali Pizzaro: we have not even thought about this I suspect we are just free to use Sl and we are encouraged by the principal
Marc Rexen: No, they own the work product of the human, not the AV.
AJ Brooks: the avatar is a product
Marc Rexen: The TOS doesn't let them "own" the AV.
AJ Brooks: [gasp]
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: thanks for the link, hobbs...if others have URLs relevant to the topic, post them for the transcript
Identity Euler: according to LL avatar is owned by a person
AJ Brooks: Marc, if they are paying for the account it is their to do with as they see fit
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Marc...doesn't LL "own" our account??
Grinn Pidgeon: my avatar existed before the school bought the land
Marc Rexen: So they take your picture, and hang it in the foyer, so they own your body, and require that you have plastic surgery to work somewhere else.
AJ Brooks: If you get Lindens while the institution is paying for your account, the lindens blong to them too as does anything you buy with those lindens
Marc Rexen: Oh, and change your name as well.
Gemini Unplugged: are there any in world schools that provide spaces to hold sessions?
Marc Rexen: No, a judge will come down on the side that "You own yourself," it will be the virtual equivalent of habeas corpus.
AJ Brooks: i don't see a difference between this and work for hire contracting
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: ah--if the institution pays for your account. But I pay for my own premium acct.
AJ Brooks: that does not exist, marc
AJ Brooks: we've not gotten to that point of law yet
AJ Brooks: right now - if you pay, you own
Katya Anatine: I think that avatars are "identity." We construct our online identity through our avatars, much like we do with clothes we wear RL. Just because we wear it to work doesn't make it U property.
Olivia Hotshot: Gemini - come have a seat at the table. There are open ones next to the ramp.
Marc Rexen: The "work for hire," doesn't include making an AV, usually.
AJ Brooks: yes - the avatar is a transferable object
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: For Gemini's information--if anyone has a link to a syllabus or site about your SL teaching could you post it?
AJ Brooks: but an object nonetheless
Gemini Unplugged: oh this meeting is voice enables
Marc Rexen: Good discussion, but my feeling is we will be allowed to "own ourselves," after the dust settles (they'll be a case someday).
Dusty Artaud: Protecting IP http://npirl.blogspot.com/2009/05/dont-let-your-virtual-creations-die.html
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I tried to sell Richmond my alt...they died laughing and paid me to keep him :D
Zotarah Shepherd: Since some things are not transferable, those things should be ours.
Zotarah Shepherd: And materials we pay for should also be ours.
AJ Brooks: well - I guess I poked a stick in the bee hive, on purpose tho
AJ Brooks: we cant answer these questions
AJ Brooks: legla minds have been working on this for years now
ian Bartavelle: yes zotarah
Mimi Muircastle: this is a great discussion topic for those of us who are new :)
Profdan Netizen: Definitely something we need to think long and hard about.
Fred Brecher: I think the courts will draw on standard intellectual property laws for a very long time before the dust settles and they try to enact virtual analogous legal frameworks.
Marc Rexen: There are intrinsic things resulting from work (papers, building, trained students) and extrinsic (more insight and experience for the instructor). Some are contractual, so are just there as part of being social creatures.
JeanClaude Vollmar: The big concern is probably not in the avatar, but in what is in the inventory that CANNOT be transferred. If we could transfer it all, then these's likely not to be a problem.
hobbs Constantine: Indeedy since SL itself has no government
Marc Rexen: Yes...especially since folks do get "famous" as their virtual selves.
Zotarah Shepherd: Do we have an attorney to invite here to answer this for us?
AJ Brooks: ack
Fred Brecher: Pappy, I think his honorarium is a jug of lightning.
AJ Brooks: but non-transferability is a basic tenet of protecting IP
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: hoo whee Fred. Now yu am talkin!
AJ Brooks: its what GIVE it value
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: seriously, we did have a law prof teach about IP and SL
JeanClaude Vollmar: The IP may be yours, but the product may not be.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: would be a good topic
JeanClaude Vollmar: That's how it is in the corporate world.
Kali Pizzaro: yeah
Marc Rexen: Might be a good discussion...maybe we can try and entice one of the authors...it is a growth area for law right now.
Mimi Muircastle: will we pay the attorney in Lindens or US :)
AJ Brooks: i think there will be other chances for this to come up once the gall scheduel is announced
AJ Brooks: although law is not specifically on there
Sheila Yoshikawa: The situation may be slightly different in different countries
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: how galling
Mimi Muircastle: :)
Dusty Artaud: Zo, AJ Could ask Betinna Tizzy about this IP thing she has been investigating it for the artists and architects in SL
Eliasdehart Sixpence: @ JeanClaude - doesn't that make it difficult to determine the product when it is so intangible?
Marc Rexen: Paul Lerner is another.
Profdan Netizen: But it's not any more intangible than software, is it?
Sheila Yoshikawa: no, intangible products aren't new
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Eliasdehart--software is intangible
AJ Brooks: Folks, great ideas for guests and meetings - we should consider them for the next call for topics and guests. Got my hands full trying to get fall in order with what I have now! LOL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and all we make here are lines of code, in the end, in SL or on my HD
JeanClaude Vollmar: @ Elias - Yes, it does. We treat it almost as real, but it's so much like software
Marc Rexen: Yeah, but software isn't necessarily "us as us in a personal sense."
Dusty Artaud: how is that survey going AJ?
AJ Brooks: the survey is going well
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: well, what if your school sets up your avatar for you?
AJ Brooks: we have over 70 SLER folks who responded and nearly 50 non-sler folks
Olivia Hotshot: Don't let your virtual creations die with you - (German, Dutch, Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian translations of this information are available) Content Ownership in SL http://npirl.blogspot.com/2009/05/dont-let-your-virtual-creations-die.html
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: you know that will happen somewhere
Grinn Pidgeon: @iggy then you're just the puppetmaster
Eliasdehart Sixpence: then how can you separate the IP from the product?
JeanClaude Vollmar: SL makes this the inventory too B&W, while the rest of the real world just isn't.
AJ Brooks: are you asking what the letters mean?
AJ Brooks: Intellectual Property
Gemini Unplugged: have a good meeting everybody.. I have to go ..hope to attend future meetings :-)
Eliasdehart Sixpence: IP = Intellectual Property
Eliasdehart Sixpence: the rights to a creative expression in a tangible form
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I publish stuff I write at home on my Richmond laptop--but I get the rights
AJ Brooks: Please do come back, Gemini - we meet here each week
Sheila Yoshikawa: re "what is IP" - http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/
Kali Pizzaro: as it should be
JeanClaude Vollmar: If I buy a car, I can sell it, give it away, whatever I want to do. But buy a car here that is non-trans, you're stuck. You can't do a thing with it.
Kali Pizzaro: Iggy
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but if I design a Web site for Richmond at home or at work, it's their IP
Grinn Pidgeon: but if you publish in a journal, they get the rights to your work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Grinn--true
AJ Brooks: why do you keep saying it is worthless
Marc Rexen: But you are "contracting" for the car at the onset Jean, so you agreed to the restriction.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: For one tho, I get online rights
Kali Pizzaro: yeah but everyone still knows you wrote it
Sheila Yoshikawa: @JeanClaude - however some creative media have restrictions as regards performance or resale
Marc Rexen: ((Usually...this could cause problems for some vendor machines)).
Gemini Unplugged shouts: I will thanks AJ .. sorry I was lagging badly had to move away a bit
Joy Rembrandt: IP is an issue big within many universities in RL, the question comes up not only on faculty's work but also on student's work. It is a tough topic.
Gemini Unplugged shouts: sorry for shouting :-)
ian Bartavelle: whats is IP?
AJ Brooks shouts: @gemini LOL
Olivia Hotshot: intellectual property
Ignatius Onomatopoeia shouts: come back soon! I love that shouting anim, Gemini!
ian Bartavelle: thanks ^^
AJ Brooks: Say YES if you have a paid account here in SL (meaning, your EDU account, not an alt of your own)
AJ Brooks: nobody?
Aquiel Aero: yes
Dusty Artaud: IP so confusing - keeps many lawyers employed I bet.
Kali Pizzaro: yes i think so hah
AJ Brooks: ah - ok
Lizzy Saintlouis: yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: YES
Grinn Pidgeon: yes but what do you mean EDU account
Kali Pizzaro: well maybe not - confused.com
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Kali, maybe the one you primarily use for education purposes?
AJ Brooks: the account you use for your edu work
Grinn Pidgeon: I have one paid account--mine
AJ Brooks: what iggy said
Kali Pizzaro: nah i just set it up myself although i think if i need money they will give me it
Angelia Halsey: i have an account I use for 'work' and one personal but neither are paid
Kali Pizzaro: not the same
Lizzy Saintlouis: I have access to an account the EDU pays for to do university work
AJ Brooks: ok - so, of the folks who said YES, who pays for it?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: me
Joy Rembrandt: what does your "paid" account pay for?
Aquiel Aero: I pay for my own account
Grinn Pidgeon: I even give Lindens to faculty at workshops-and they are my LIndens
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I pay tier on private land
Kali Pizzaro: no i pay nothing!
Profdan Netizen: no
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes mine is my own account too - I had some input from the uni (and it pays for the island) but I pay myself otherwise
Kali Pizzaro: no the uni has bought two islands
Mimi Muircastle: I have my own paid account because I own land
Eliasdehart Sixpence: I was told by an SLer that a paid account just confuses the issue and isn't necessary
Zotarah Shepherd: Me too
Kali Pizzaro: one public one private
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I give Lindens to students--no accounting involved--for scavenger hunts. But they are not Richmond-purchased Linden Dollars
AJ Brooks: you only need to have a paid account o own land on the mainland
Dusty Artaud is now totally flummoxed
Kali Pizzaro: ok duh
ian Bartavelle: I no account pay
ian Bartavelle: I pay the account
AJ Brooks: anyone can own a private island
Zotarah Shepherd: If you own land not on a private sim you have to have a paid account
Kali Pizzaro: uni pays
Zotarah Shepherd: I have property on the mainland too
AJ Brooks: yes - to own mainland land, you must have a premium membership
Zotarah Shepherd: But you need a non-profit or be a school to have an educational sim, which costs a lot less
AJ Brooks: this is not the case with private islands, like these here
AJ Brooks: yes
AJ Brooks: and not A LOT less
AJ Brooks: 300$ on the set up
AJ Brooks: 150$ p/month on the maintenance
AJ Brooks: it use to be a much bigger difference
Zotarah Shepherd: I used to own land on a private sim where it was not necessary to have a paid account.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: the best reason to own land is for the media stream...that's the only reason I got a plot. I've used it to test presentation tools that I cannot test on our University island
Alan Sandalwood: I pay my account, land and buildings etc. Will let school use during test phase.
AJ Brooks: Yes, Z - on private sims, it doesn't matter
AJ Brooks: because, on a private sim, you are really not the "owner"
AJ Brooks: your land can be reclaimed by the sim owner anytime
Alan Sandalwood: US$300 ^????
AJ Brooks: for instance
AJ Brooks: here on chsssouth
Mimi Muircastle: isn't that renting on a private sim, not owning from the Lindens?
AJ Brooks: residents "own" their parcel
Profdan Netizen: Why couldn't you test on Uni land, Iggy?
AJ Brooks: they can do anything an owner can do
AJ Brooks: but they are not really the owner, per se
AJ Brooks: bascially, on a private sim, it is renting - more or less
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Dan--you have to have land deeded to a group or own it to change the media stream
Lizzy Saintlouis: But if I want to buy a full sim, I need a paid account. Correct?
AJ Brooks: nope
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: So a pal sold me her land for 1L. I pay $5 US a month tier
AJ Brooks: you can buy a private island and not have a paid account
ian Bartavelle: what difference does have a private account or not to have a private island where you pay the same amount of the island with private account or not
Joy Rembrandt: if my institution's rule applies here, if Univ pays for the island, then they will own the IP created on the island. a very touchy subject with online education.
Kali Pizzaro: indeed
AJ Brooks: yes, Joy - thats a good point
JeanClaude Vollmar: Yes, I'm not a paid account but am the owner of our island.
AJ Brooks: I am not a paid account, and won two islands
Kali Pizzaro: could put folk off @Joy
Joy Rembrandt: you cannot imagine the discussions!
Kali Pizzaro: i can
Profdan Netizen: So changing the media stream for test purposes would mess things up for others, Iggy?
Kali Pizzaro: believe me
Ashy Viper: Ive been land hunting the past few days and havent seen anything preventing me from buying any land and Im not paid account
Eliasdehart Sixpence: the other thing a paid account gives you is technical support from Lindens. Is that all that necessary or helpful?
AJ Brooks: and a stipend, which is nice
Marc Rexen: Paid has helped me.
Mimi Muircastle: From my experience it is - esp. with griefers, etc.
Sheila Yoshikawa: Ashy, it could be land with a covenant, rather than buying direct from LL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Dan--it's complex. Worth a Roundtable in itself!
Alan Sandalwood: Ashy, when you buy, Linden automatically makes you a premium account
JeanClaude Vollmar: I get support, but am not paid because I'm a land owner of our sim.
AJ Brooks: that is Concierge support, which is different
Ashy Viper: there's no way to do that for me ... Iraq has no credit card system
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: In the end, I'm using a presenter tool that does not require a media-stream. I just need perms to place a server.
Ashy Viper: no way to pay for anything online
Joy Rembrandt: an even better scenario which actually happened, what if a student creates something and wants to market it? The school reserves the right / ownership because it was a result of learning from the school
Mimi Muircastle: Ashy, you can do a PayPal account I think if you hve a bank account
Dusty Artaud: omg Ashy
Ashy Viper: no bank accounts Mimi
Ashy Viper: lol
AJ Brooks: good point, Joy - I never thought of that
Mimi Muircastle: :( frustrating
Eliasdehart Sixpence: could you get a credit card from out of country? Or is that impossible?
Ashy Viper: our banks accounts are just as good as piggy banks lol
Kali Pizzaro: interesting as one of our students is working in the SL eam as part of their project and building a lot on our sim
Alan Sandalwood: Not even corporate accounts for your institution?
Mimi Muircastle: Ashy, do check paypal as there are a variety of ways to deposit $ in the accoutns
Eliasdehart Sixpence: As an aside, I heard a segment on To the Best of Our Knowledge today about "Coming of Age in Second Life" by Tom Boellstorff
http://www.wpr.org/book/080720b.html
Worth a listen.
Ashy Viper: that is possible, but keeping in touch with the bank is difficult
Margaret Michalski: @ Eliassdehart, you have to read the fine print. Some countries make you pay for having a credit card.
JeanClaude Vollmar: @Elias - That's a great idea. Buy a prepaid debit card then next time he travels outside of the country
Joy Rembrandt: yes but we cannot let these things get to us. it will stifle creativity.
AJ Brooks: I'd like to get Boellstorff as a guest
Ashy Viper: @mimi ... how will I physically transfer the money ... no way
AJ Brooks: what is his SL name, does anyone know?
Mimi Muircastle: who is he, AJ
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Ashy, travel to Turkey may be difficult for you, but the big Turkish banks like Akbank may work out an account for you
Kali Pizzaro: is he not on the list Aj
AJ Brooks: oh - he's on the list
AJ Brooks: and in the lead, I think
AJ Brooks: I'd like to know his SL name, though - so I can contact him here
Ashy Viper: @Iggy, my folks are there now .. tell me more
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'll IM you
Kali Pizzaro: ah ok
Ashy Viper: ok
AJ Brooks: does anyone know Tom Boellstorff's SL name?
Eliasdehart Sixpence: find him in RL and email him?
AJ Brooks: well - if he wrote Coming of Age in SL - he must have an SL name
Mimi Muircastle: or, twitter him :)
AJ Brooks: twitter?
AJ Brooks: what is his twitter name?
Marc Rexen: Tom Bukowski
Mimi Muircastle: yes, twitter - I don't know but it was just an idea :)
AJ Brooks: Thanks Marc
Eliasdehart Sixpence: tboellst@uci.edu
Marc Rexen: Bukowski is his SL name.
AJ Brooks: its easier for me to do this things in SL - helps keep me organized. I know wher to go to look for things :-)
AJ Brooks: Ok - we have about 5 minutes left
AJ Brooks: lets talk about an easy topic
Joy Rembrandt: AJ! watch out for the virtual reality :)
AJ Brooks: adult content
AJ Brooks: LOL
JeanClaude Vollmar: LOL
JeanClaude Vollmar: Yeah, right.
AJ Brooks: :-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: hah
Ashy Viper: grins
Mimi Muircastle: hehehe
AJ Brooks: Someone told me they hear that LL is going to lower the age to get in
Dusty Artaud: OK who has visited Zindra here?
AJ Brooks: so - not actually merging the grids
Profdan Netizen: Too bad no Lindens here today.
AJ Brooks: but opening this one up
Marc Rexen: Continent is progressing fine...many RP builds and scurrilous content, inhabited by nice folks that are currently having a contest for a flag (community building effort).
AJ Brooks: nice
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: AJ, the only verified info we have on that is Pathfinder's (or Claudia's) remark that they are looking into ways for first-year students in Europe who are 16-17 could come on the main grid
Ashy Viper: I wrote an article in the SL magazine about adult content
AJ Brooks: oh - I know
Olivia Hotshot: I have been to Zindra
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: My alt covered Zindra for the Alphaville Herald
AgileBill Firehawk: lol!
JeanClaude Vollmar: Is that based upon age of consent?
AJ Brooks: this is jsut a rumor, I was wondering if anyone else has heard it
Olivia Hotshot: I went the day it opened and got griefed at a rp sim.
Ashy Viper: what about Zindra?
Eliasdehart Sixpence: I am not age verified so can't go :(
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: LOL....it was rather tame. No noobs or griefers. It may have been a great idea to segregate that content. Club owners will like it, I bet.
Olivia Hotshot: http://virtuallyolivia.blogspot.com/search?q=Zindra
Eliasdehart Sixpence: ha
AJ Brooks: Oh - before I forget, anyone here good at databases?
Zotarah Shepherd: I went to Zindra before anything was on it. Probably the only time I will go there.
Marc Rexen: If you have a credit card, or Paypal, on file, or used, you're likely verified.
AJ Brooks: if so, IM me
Kali Pizzaro: say nothing or pay
Kali Pizzaro: lol
Marc Rexen: They're "behind the scenes" verifying folks.
Sheila Yoshikawa: could you define "good at databases" please?
Kali Pizzaro: be careful Sheila
Marc Rexen: Catching even one that were "banned" for being underage a year ago, but are now of age.
Marc Rexen: They are definitely trying to make it easy to get there.
Zotarah Shepherd: There are already over a thousand teens on the main grid. Teens told me that.
Kali Pizzaro: i can believe that
Kali Pizzaro: spelling !!!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Zo, Pappy will take you back: http://foo.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2009/07/second-lifes-zindra-nekkid-gals-wiggling-bots-running-up-traffic.html
Dusty Artaud: So Ashy could not get into Zindra because no payment info on file?
Alan Sandalwood: I know a couple of 10 year olds who love the place
Marc Rexen: Seniors...seems the most prevalent...the youngers, get bored and go to WOW.
AJ Brooks: well - we may need to have a database back end with a web interface for people to use to search certain fields in the db
Sheila Yoshikawa: I think "good at databases" probably means something I am no good at all so I'm safe
Mimi Muircastle: I have another RL meeting to get to - see you all soon :)
AJ Brooks: I'm looking for someone who might know something about that - this is for an SLER effort
Zotarah Shepherd: It is hard for teens in other countries to get age verified to get on to the TG too so they came here instead where no age verification is necessary.
Ashy Viper: @Dusty ... never heard of Zindra .. I was asking what it is and whats special about it
Marc Rexen: It's the adult continent Ashy.
Dusty Artaud: Adult Content is in a separate regions call Zindra
Olivia Hotshot: The outer end of Cinyris Island, a premier vacation spot!
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pimuenti/64/247/27
Welcome to Kama City!
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Mosh/125/21/24
One of the hydroelectric dams on the River.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Oritz/230/136/38
Another mighty dam!
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pengallen%20Bridge/200/240/38
The third dam.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ursula%20177/223/197/38
Greetings from Shell Beach!
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shell%20Beach/221/23/36
[Iggy's note: third dam not available during test--first two are cool]
AJ Brooks: Folks, out time is up for this week. You are welcome to stay if you want
Zotarah Shepherd: That is where all the "Adult" content is going
Olivia Hotshot: All Zindra spots.
Marc Rexen: It is also where the "adults" will go if they let teens in...:)
AJ Brooks: Make sure to join us next week where Ashy Viper will be my special guest
Profdan Netizen: Ahhhh--clicking on URLs keeps crashing my SL viewer!!!!!
Ashy Viper: smiles
Olivia Hotshot: sorry Dan
AJ Brooks: Ashy joins us from Iraq and if you were here last week you will know how interesting this promises to be
Marc Rexen: Try Snowglobe or KirstenLees S18 -- both gave me back SL (was crashing constantly).
Zotarah Shepherd: Another interesting meeting. Thanks AJ and everyone
Eliasdehart Sixpence: I'm getting hot and think I need to disappear :-)
AJ Brooks: thx Z
Marc Rexen: Get that generator going...:)
Dusty Artaud: looking forward to your talk Ashy
AJ Brooks: BTW - folks, Z and I were talking the others day
Kali Pizzaro: Thanks all
Ashy Viper: its an honour
Sheila Yoshikawa: thanks
AJ Brooks: The only person I know of who has been to nearly all the meetings since the first one - is me, and Zotarah!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia tips the bowler at Olivia! Thanks for those links!
Alan Sandalwood: Bye
Zotarah Shepherd: hehe nearly
Olivia Hotshot: Welcome Mister Iggy.
Zotarah Shepherd: This is my favorite meeting.
AJ Brooks: /bows
Marc Rexen: You all get a cookie...:)
Zotarah Shepherd: Yum!
Katya Anatine: This has been very interesting
AJ Brooks: what,. no milk also?
AJ Brooks: didn't take much to get you guys rolling today?
AJ Brooks: :-)
Ashy Viper: you should put a plate on the table .. lol
Marc Rexen: Budget cuts...you know, but we do have this thing called water.
AJ Brooks: and we actually stayed on topic
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: a first, AJ
AJ Brooks: no - but its been a while
Zotarah Shepherd: When is the next Quddich AJ?
Olivia Hotshot: PLEASE GO TO THE FLICKR GROUP AND TAG YOURSELF IN PHOTOS. thanks =) http://www.flickr.com/groups/sler/pool/
Marc Rexen: Good talk...learned a lot and given a lot to think about.
AJ Brooks: um - I think on Saturday
AJ Brooks: plus Hobbs and Margaret have organized others
ian Bartavelle: laaag
Olivia Hotshot: Thanks everyone!
Katya Anatine: Practice tomorrow night I think
AJ Brooks: Margaret, yours was today right
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: well, me and the missus need to hop in the truck...I ain't kidding
Kali Pizzaro: i still don't have a clue need to get some practise
Kali Pizzaro: haha enjoy Iggy
Zotarah Shepherd: I practiced for over an hour last time after you left AJ.
Margaret Michalski: Yes! Times will very depending on he schedule
AJ Brooks: Hobbs, when is yours?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: see you all next week. Thanks again, Ashy, for being willing to be our speaker!
Katya Anatine: It is so fn! Holla if you want to practice sometime, anyone
JeanClaude Vollmar: Thanks! Great one. See you all next week.