Transcript of June 16, 2009 Second Life Roundtable Discussion.
Topic: Virtual Worlds Other than Second Life
Photos Courtesy of Olivia Hotshot (visit her blog and Flickr photostream). See Olivia's Flickr group for the SLER to add your own photos. Pics here of Metaplace and Tut's tomb by me.
Links Mentioned:
Iggy's notes:
Several of the participants wanted to know about software for moving content between SL and OpenSim worlds. Since the meeting, Wagner James Au blogged on the Meerkat tool for moving content between virtual worlds.
Alan Sandalwood: I'm in the same place. For my are, it seems to have many advantages, but I have to justify it all to my boss.
Ron Shoreman: I'm an Elluminate user for distance work. I'm trying to see what SL brings to the table.
Alan Sandalwood: I haven't yet looked at Elluminate. What are it's advantages?
Ron Shoreman: 2way audio or text, application sharing, interactive white board, quizzing, and a few things I haven't used.
Ron Shoreman: But I hear there are some similar tools available in SL.
Alan Sandalwood: Seems nice., How was your experience of training staff and students?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Interesting--I've used Marratech for video conferences
Ron Shoreman: Much smaller client for Elluminate. Less student tool-up, less band width and machine horsepower needed.
Katie Fenstalker: (Hi Teachergirl, Iggy, others).
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but it does not let me build 3D simulations. Is Eluminate a virtual world or a video conf app?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Hey Katie...see I turned on the dorky typing anim for you guys, after the talk last week.
Ron Shoreman: More conferencing. Can do video, but it needs machine power and bandwidth.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @ Ron--yeah, I need virtual worlds to build what I do. Cannot accomplish the immersive learning with conferences. But for meetings, SL still works better than Marratech for the voice bit.
Ron Shoreman: I'm trying to find out if the virtual world helps me in some way.
Ron Shoreman: And my students, of course.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: We use elluminate..you can get a free trial run with three people ..I like it still learning use it for all my meetings..the drawback people need to get the mics and sound set up right
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: This is a good venue to find out.
Ron Shoreman: My U has a site license.
Ron Shoreman: Excuse me. Need to be AFK for a moment.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: yes we have a site license I also like that you can record the sessions
CathyWyo1 Haystack: some of the faculty here record the sessions and embed them in the lms so students can view them at any time
Katie Fenstalker: how do you embed in an LM?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: being able to record voice to a file would rock...is that would you mean for Eluminate?
CathyWyo1 Haystack: they upload them somehow into the learning management system the link?
CathyWyo1 Haystack: the recording comes on a link
CathyWyo1 Haystack: well it's a link to the recording I don't know if you can download the actual file
AJ Brooks: hi everyone - give me just a moment, my entire desk just fell on the floor! LOL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia waves at Viv
Katie Fenstalker: waves.
Prospero Frobozz: very slow rezzing for me
CathyWyo1 Haystack: oops
Viv Trafalgar: hey Iggy - my chair is haunted
Ungo Azambuja: me too
Ron Shoreman: Good crowd.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: great topic
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Good grief, AJ--that's a LOT of coffee
AJ Brooks: it happened in my rush to get signed in
AJ Brooks: I was late ;leaving work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I've been logging the chat--already discussing some video conf. apps
AJ Brooks: ok - well, lets go ahead and get started
Gwenette Writer: wild ride haha
AJ Brooks: Hi everyone, and welcome to this weeks SL Education Roundtable.
AJ Brooks: These meetings are made possible by the Office of Information Technology at Montclair State University.
AJ Brooks: We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour. Our topic today is "Virtual Worlds Other Than Second Life".
AJ Brooks: This is a public meeting, so we do keep a transcript of what is said in local chat.
AJ Brooks: For a copy of older transcripts, please visit http://sler-transcripts.wikispaces.com and for more recent transcripts, please visit
http://www.virtualworldsedu.info
AJ Brooks: Special thanks to our resident scribe, Iggy Onomatopoeia, for taking care of this. If you've not seen the transcripts, you should check them out - they are a great information asset.
AJ Brooks: For information on FUTURE MEETINGS, there is a notecard giver on the West wall of the Amphitheater.
AJ Brooks: The SL Education Roundtable meeting happens each week and we are looking to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
AJ Brooks: Please join the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE group. If you have problems finding it in search, just outside this amphitheater you will see several displays. By clicking the appropriate one you can join the group.
AJ Brooks: As the group grows, there will be announcements, surveys, and decisions made that will be exclusive to the group.
AJ Brooks: Speaking of announcements, there is a new addition for educators to the CHSSSouth Amphitheater.
AJ Brooks: Just outside the Amphitheater, to the east side of the stairs (to the right as you head out), is a bulletin board.
AJ Brooks: Educators are welcome to add notes about events and other short term items to the board.
AJ Brooks: Click the top notecard giver to details and important instruction to follow on how to leave a note for others.
AJ Brooks: Aside from the island we are currently on, Monclair State University also has two other educational islands adjoining to the north.
AJ Brooks: There are also numerous learning areas on these adjoining islands, Montclair State CHSS and Montclair State CEHSADP, which is home to The Theorist Project and Wilber Middle School Library. Wander around and enjoy.
AJ Brooks: If you are on Facebook, please join our group there - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=44078263753&ref=share
AJ Brooks: Thanks to Olivia Hotshot for putting together a Flickr group for the SLER. I encourage everyone to join the group and to take pictures from our meeting and add them to the group. Its a great way to show, and grow, our community.
AJ Brooks: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
AJ Brooks: Those sitting in the amphitheater seating, please do come down and join us
AJ Brooks: we all sit around the roundtable
AJ Brooks: empty seats are closest to the access ramp
AJ Brooks: As a hint, it is better to have "local chat" open for these meetings, it will help you follow the conversation better.
AJ Brooks: You can find local chat by clicking COMMUNICATE in the bottom navigation bar and you'll find LOCAL CHAT as one of the tabs at the bottom of the Communicate window.
AJ Brooks: Why don't we get started they way we usually do, by introducing ourselves. No need to wait, go ahead and type who you are, where you are, and your ties to education into local chat.
AJ Brooks: I am AJ Kelton, Director of Emerging Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University
AJ Brooks: and the Coordinator of the Second Life Project for the College of Education and Human Services, also at MSU. We're located in northern New Jersey, just fourteen miles from midtown Manhattan.
Grinn Pidgeon: Barbara Pittman, Cuyahoga Community College, Cleveland, Ohio. Faculty Development/Instructional technology http://slurl.com/secondlife/Outreach/221/206/28
Prospero Frobozz: I am Rob Knop, unemployed astrophysicist & computer programmer. If you have a job open for a physicist, let me know!
Ron Shoreman: I'm Ron Shoreman. I'm at the University of South Florida, USA.
Profdan Netizen: I'm Dan Holt, professor at Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI. I teach fy comp and creative writing. Been teaching online for 12 years, teaching in SL for first time this fall.
AJ Brooks: LOL @ Prospero
Ignatius Onomatopoeia is Joe Essid, University of Richmond's Writing Center and Writing Across the Curriculum Director. I've taught 3 classes in writing or lit with SL.
Bill Friis: Bill Freese, Instructional Media Lab, Montana State University
Gwenette Writer: folks we have a faculty Kennesaw Campus emergency - accidental deletion:)) brb
hobbs Constantine: Heather Dodds, Science Program Community Facilitator and Mentor, Western Governors University www.wgu.edu
Viv Trafalgar: Hi Prospero :)
Katie Fenstalker: Katie King, women's studies, University of Maryland
Kev Juno: Kev Juno (Kevin Lowey) University of Saskatchewan IT Services Division Instructional Support Services
Alan Sandalwood: Alan Haywood. Centro Cultural Brasil Estados Unidos Campinas
Kali Pizzaro: Glasgow Caledonian University Nurse Lecturer
Teachergirl Razor: Carole Farberm Faculty of Information and Media Studies, The University of Western Ontario, London Canada
Oddprofessor Snoodle: I'm Vicki Robinson, from the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, looking for new ways to deliver physics instruction.
Eliasdehart Sixpence: Casey Ashe, LRC (library) Supervisor, Tulsa Community College
Catherine Soderstrom: I'm Catherine Dutton, Instructional Coordinator and SL project manager for Texas Woman's University
Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. I am working on an Immersive Interactive Educational build about Life-skills.
lizit Cleanslate: Liz Thackray, from the Open University and University of Sussex UK - I teach at former and am DPhil student at latter
Dusty Artaud: Randi Kopp, marketing consultant for KidsbridgeTolerance Museum on campus of TCNJ in Ewing, NJ
Hattie Haystack: I am a Nursing Clinical Instructor at the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
Ungo Azambuja: I teach english and a dab of philosophy iat SUNY Oswego and Cayuga Community College--looking for --i dunno, whetever's handy here
Ron Shoreman: I started my teaching career at UWEC. :)
Olivia Hotshot: Ann Steckel CSU Chico - techie/educator
Hattie Haystack: Cool Ron!
AJ Brooks: anyone else not introduced themselves yet?
Violetcrumble India: Michelle Youngberg - I work for an online high school
Saleta Telling: Saleta Telling. Representing a trio of rural libraries.
AJ Brooks: going once
AJ Brooks: ah - ok - sorry
AJ Brooks: anyone else?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I want to welcome Prospero back to our gatherings!
AJ Brooks: going once
AJ Brooks: twice
AJ Brooks: sold to the former Linden dressed in all black
AJ Brooks: :-)
AJ Brooks: ok - so our meeting today is about Virtual Worlds OTHER THAN Second Life
Ron Shoreman: My apologies in advance. I'll need to pop out in a bit. Gotta go hold live class. :)
AJ Brooks: what I'd like to do is hear from people who have had experience in other VWs
AJ Brooks: but before we do that
AJ Brooks: this is how I was hoping we could do this
AJ Brooks: If you've spent some time in a VW other than SL, IM me, and I'll go around the table based on those who IM me
AJ Brooks: others can then chime in as we go along
AJ Brooks: and to start us off
Olivia Hotshot: do games count?
AJ Brooks: (and while I take a few minutes afk to clean things up)
AJ Brooks: I'm going to turn it over in a minute to Iggy
AJ Brooks: but first Olivia's question
AJ Brooks: If you mean a game like WoW, then, well - I guess thats up for grabs but yes, I think its a virtual world
AJ Brooks: I'm really looking to focus on educational experiences in other virtual worlds, or what folks see as the prospects of those
AJ Brooks: but I'm open on this
AJ Brooks: so - I'm going to go afk for a few minutes
AJ Brooks: and if Iggy would be kind enough
AJ Brooks: I'm hoping he can talk about Metaplace
AJ Brooks: and maybe even something else. :-)
AJ Brooks: take it away, iggy
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Sure....where's my explorer hat? I gotta talk about King Tut.
Olivia Hotshot chuckles
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I've been using the Web-based VW Metaplace for several months
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I began as a beta-tester
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and have a bit of real estate there
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Raph Koster, the designer there, wanted a set of worlds with lots of User-Generated content
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but that could run in a browser and across platforms
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's lag-free, but not 3D
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://metaplace.com/
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I compare the experience to Sim City 2000
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: sort of 2.5D
Prospero Frobozz: How many people can you get into one meeting / presentation?
Ron Shoreman: Got it.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: residents get a single world--can hold up to (I think) 40 avatars
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Raph can raise that cap later
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: population is sparse for now, as are education applications...but I'm exploring
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Key difference: you "level up" and get goodies for exploring, socializing
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and building
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and others see your rank
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: there is no working economy yet
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: gold is just spacebux, for now
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: you can design items and the interface is very simple
Ron Shoreman: Is it as rich as SL in applications you can purchase?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: not yet, Ron
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but developing for it is simple..if you don't mind the arcade-game look
(Fuzzy shot of IggyO a month back--8th level--with a close up of his mad-science lab in Metaplace)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: you can embed scripts and make items do things
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: far easier than in SL
Ron Shoreman: OK
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I have talking teleporters in my house...and one final thing
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Metaplace does not require huge server farms
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: worlds are only "on" when folks are there
Katie Fenstalker: why not?
Ron Shoreman: Is it as demanding on the local machine?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: not at all
Tgc10 Bermann: Do you have to pay for land?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: MP runs in a browser
Prospero Frobozz: Much/most of the demands that SL makes on the local machine is the 3d rendering
Ron Shoreman: Ah.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yes, they have a premium setup for more than a single world
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'll get you the links soon and put them into the chat
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I like it, as a "game" or chat locale.
Profdan Netizen: How's the access to 2D web, Iggy? Can you use a browser within the world? Or google docs?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but it does not feel like a world
Ron Shoreman: Good for office hours, then.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Good Q, Dan. For now, I don't know
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: excellent for office hours, in fact
Prospero Frobozz: Does it have a voice component?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: no voice yet
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: to my knowledge
Ron Shoreman: OK
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but it's growing FAST
Ron Shoreman: I can imagine. SL's done a good job lately chasing away some members.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I don't see MP as an SL replacement
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: they look so different
Seafore Perl: MP?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: MP is not as immersive...I never "feel" like I'm my avatar...MP is Metaplace, by the way
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: My other project involves Rezzable's OpenSim
Grinn Pidgeon: I find it to look very childish
Seafore Perl: ty
Katie Fenstalker: what do you suggest using it for iggy?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and THAT is darned exciting
Ron Shoreman: I've heard of that one.
Prospero Frobozz: How is Rezzable's OpenSim different from regular OpenSim?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: they have a cluster of servers to run Heritake Key
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: they installed OpenSim to do a simulation of Tut's tomb
(Iggyo Heritage in the "Cosmic Gallery" of the OpenSim Tut build, where visitors can walk around and through larger-than life versions of the artifacts)
Katie Fenstalker: there's more than one OpenSim?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: the valley of the Kings
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and a museum
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yes--there are hundreds of OpenSim worlds
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but
Prospero Frobozz: Well, OpenSim is an open source project that provides just the software. There are lots of people running it
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: limited ability to move between them
Katie Fenstalker: how do you know where to go?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: as for Metaplace--that last Q
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'm just exploring and playing games now
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I highly recommend "Zoo Escape": sick but fun
Kev Juno: I'm running an opensim on the same desktop machine I'm running this SL session in right now.
AJ Brooks is back
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: back to Heritage Key for a sec...here's the link
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://heritage-key.com/virtual-experience
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: the main site is
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://heritage-key.com/
Alan Sandalwood: What skills do you recommend to run an OpenSim
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Rezzable plans OpenSim worlds for all of the ancient wonders
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Alan--more skills than I have
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Prospero would know
Alan Sandalwood: haha
AJ Brooks: Kev Juno also mentioned running a beta of open sim, no?
Prospero Frobozz: You'd probably want to have a machine at a colo somewhere, or at a college with lots of bandwidth. You should be comfortable administering your machine, and installing and hacking on not-turnkey software
Alan Sandalwood: Ok,Ty.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: using the OpenSim worlds is another matter, however
Alan Sandalwood: TY Prospero, may I contact you at another time about this?
Kev Juno: Yes, I am running the opensim serer on my office desktop machine. Was a simple install, but I am in the IT department :)
Prospero Frobozz: Alan : I'm not really an expert :) but I know a lot about administering machines in general. I haven't (yet) tried running OpenSim myself
Prospero Frobozz: Some year I will.
Alan Sandalwood: TY
AJ Brooks: Kev, what has been your experience
AJ Brooks: what have you done with it?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I found the Heritage Key setup easy..their client takes you right into their world. Zero Lag, but you have to be comfy with an SL-style client.
Prospero Frobozz: Re: using OpenSim, does anybody have recommendations for public grids to play around in? I've played around in OSGrid, but they seem to have a slow asset server a lot. OpenSim seems "clunkier" than SL in general, and I hear that LSL has lots of gaps in it
Ron Shoreman: So some tool-up for students, then.
Kev Juno: I have experimented with the "stand alone" implementation. Haven't tried to set up a grid.
AJ Brooks: can you explain the difference
RobertKlein Dogpatch: OpenSim uses a Hypergrid concept for linking many grids
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: very little lag at the Heritage Key grid--and it's all about education. Our team is working with Rezzable to develop materials, assignments and interactive quests for visitors
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: You can see a preview of Tut in SL:
AJ Brooks: [yeah our team]
Ron Shoreman: Pardon me, folks. Need to go run class. I look forward to the next meeting.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kings%20Rezzable/128/128/2
Olivia Hotshot: bye Ron
AJ Brooks: the tut in SL rocks!
Bill Friis: Adios, Ron
Alan Sandalwood: Bye Ron
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: thank for coming by, Ron
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's only one region in SL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's seven in OpenSim
Katie Fenstalker: ty
Viv Trafalgar: @ AJ totally does
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: much more engaging..and cheaper for Rezzable to run that way
Kev Juno: Opensim once installed in standalone mode gives one island. You have to buildeveryting yourself. No stores to get stuff.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Kev--exactly. You'd need some mad skills
AJ Brooks: @kev, does it have building tools like SL?
RobertKlein Dogpatch: yes
Kev Juno: You can also build it in gri mode, where there is a grid controller, then multiple desktop installations, one for each region. So I can walk off my machine onto my coworker's machine.
AJ Brooks: yes.....it has building tools?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Heritage Key is built using a client they developed from the open source SL code--very similar look and tools
RobertKlein Dogpatch: We use the same viewer software as SL
AJ Brooks nods
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Alogn with Hippo Viewer
Kev Juno: Opensim works exactly like second life, using th same viewer software. You can also use the open source hippo viewer.
RobertKlein Dogpatch: along
Prospero Frobozz: You *can* get the Hippo OpenSim viewr, which makes it easier to log into non-SL grids, although you can log into non-SL grids with the standard SL client
Alan Sandalwood: How?
AJ Brooks: really, Prospero?
Katie Fenstalker: y
Katie Fenstalker: how?
Prospero Frobozz: You have to specify a --loginuri on the command line
Prospero Frobozz: It's not trivial, but it can be done
Kev Juno: www.opensimulator.org lets you download opensimulator and gives information. I think it also has links to hippo viewer
AJ Brooks: ACK!!!!!
AJ Brooks: command line!
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz ♥ command line
AJ Brooks: To me, a command line, is STAND UP STRAIGHT
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yeah-not ready for anyone but alpha-geeks :)
RobertKlein Dogpatch: You can embed the -loginuri in the Windows icon properties for the SL viewer
Olivia Hotshot: youre so ready for Vegas, AJ
Bill Friis: Just like talking to a computer in chat.
AJ Brooks: lol
Kev Juno: My interest in opensim is as an integrator in our IT department. Since it is open source, we could build sims that automatically hook into our LMS and our student userid database
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Mac users write an Applescript thingie to make it work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but you could not expect students or colleagues to do that!
Katie Fenstalker: (you got the script iggy?)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I can get you the link, Katie...not tried it :)
Katie Fenstalker: ty
AJ Brooks: No need to say NO if you haven't, but please say YES if you've been onto an opensim sim, any flavor.
Prospero Frobozz: YES
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: BTW, post on one edu-site in Metaplace: not fully running yet: http://iggyo.blogspot.com/2009/06/margram-in-metaplace-watch-that.html
Sophy Cascarino is Online
RobertKlein Dogpatch: YES
Prospero Frobozz is Prospero Frobozz on OSGrid
Kali Pizzaro: no
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: yes
Zotarah Shepherd: No
Firery Broome: yes
Bill Friis: yes
Eliasdehart Sixpence: no
Katie Fenstalker: n
Jetty Shoreman: no
Kev Juno: OSGrid at http://www.osgrid.org is a grid that runs using the opensim software.
AJ Brooks: no need to say no, just the yesses
Profdan Netizen: yes
Kev Juno: yes
Kali Pizzaro: oops sorry
AJ Brooks: ok - how many of you have been on Metaplaces (Yesses only)
AJ Brooks: YES
Viv Trafalgar: yes
RobertKlein Dogpatch: If you would like a sneak peek at what is going on behind the scenes with OpenSim http://n2.nabble.com/opensim-users-f2152040.html
Prospero Frobozz: If I had a million dollars of capital, I'd create a company that put together an OpenSim grid specifically for educational uses, and developed the software to support what education wants
Kev Juno: If you develop your own simulator, you can then join it into osgrid
Bill Friis: Let me know when you are hiring, Prospero.
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Yes Kev
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Here's that ref on using OpenSim for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Running
Katie Fenstalker: ty
AJ Brooks: ANyone been into ACTIVE WORLDS?
Teachergirl Razor: yes
Viv Trafalgar: yes
Olivia Hotshot: yes - ages ago
CathyWyo1 Haystack: yes briefly
AJ Brooks: what is that like? (educationally)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Prospero--you want to get rich? Come up with an inventory system that lets an avatar move between worlds without stealing IP
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Another great info link for OpenSim is http://www.maxping.org/
AJ Brooks: does anyone know if there is still edu in Active Worlds, they used to be big into that
Kev Juno: @Ignatius I don't see what the holdup is there. People should be able to take all inventory in which they have all permissions, and just not take protected inventory across grids.
AJ Brooks: grids have to operate on standards in order for that to happen
Prospero Frobozz: Ignatius : that's a minefield I don't want to wander into :)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I know a good lawyer...Pappy Enoch :)
AJ Brooks: ROFL
CathyWyo1 Haystack: @prospero that's a great idea
Prospero Frobozz: Virtual Worlds are going to be held back until our entire society completely and totally changes the way it views the things we lump under the term "intellectual property"
AJ Brooks: EDU peopel don't want to leave behind the many wonderful builds that are already here
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I think that one problem we have with other worlds is the lack of a standard. It will emerge, or at least a few standards will.
AJ Brooks: *wonderful
Prospero Frobozz: I believe I've heard about things that let you export builds -- not sure.
Sophy Cascarino is Offline
Profdan Netizen: Nor can they afford to in large part, AJ.
Laurie Teardrop is Offline
Bill Friis: Standards require a standards committee.
AJ Brooks: so an edu world won't fly without places like Tut, and Virtual Hallucinations, and NOAA, etc....
Prospero Frobozz: Bill : not necessarily....
Jetty Shoreman: Crossing from a world with one TOS to another would be interesting too.
Prospero Frobozz: sometimes the emerge de facto
AJ Brooks: we need standards and then crossgrid traffic, inventory or not
Olivia Hotshot: similar to crossing rl continents
Prospero Frobozz: Well, OpenSim already has crossgrid traffic with hypergird
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I wonder how our schools will react to these developments? Will an edu-only VW emerge...the "Blackboard" of VWs just for talks and meetings and classes?
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Here is an article for you AJ on what someone is willing to do to bring it with them... http://maxping.org/virtual-life/other/the-openspace-fiasco-six-months-later.aspx
Prospero Frobozz: has anybody here tried any exporting tools to export a SL build to OpenSim? Scripts would be impossible (although you could cut-and-paste source code, but I don't know how good OpenSim's LSL support really is)
Prospero Frobozz: Ig : I hope not!
Prospero Frobozz: An "edu only" VW would be bad
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Second Inventory
Ping Exonar: ReactionGrid on OpenSim is already dedicated to education
Prospero Frobozz: Much better if edu is using the same protocols as everybody else
CathyWyo1 Haystack: we believe that if we move to an isolated environment from sl that or students will miss out on the opportunity to see diversity that exists...
CathyWyo1 Haystack: that is key to second life
AJ Brooks: @cathy - completely agree
Ignatius Onomatopoeia agrees with Prospero--but some administrators fearful of naughty content would love such a world
Kev Juno: If you are interested in hypergrid for cross grid movement see http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid
CathyWyo1 Haystack: the have to learn about things they are adults
AJ Brooks: we're not willing to separate ourselves from the rich content here
Viv Trafalgar: nods @Cathy emphatically
CathyWyo1 Haystack: 18 year olds cna go fight in Iraq
AJ Brooks: this isn't about adult content
Prospero Frobozz: Ig : well, you could have worlds that use the same protocols but that are isolated. Much as schools can, say, create web servers and such and lock out all computers on their net from the broader Internet
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Case Western has builtd] such a world--remember the story?
Profdan Netizen: Not all college students are 18 or older.
Bill Friis: Linden Lab is trying to clean up here a bit, with an adult zone.
Prospero Frobozz: Of course, some year people are going to realize that locking out the broader Metaverse is as futile and as stupid as locking out the broader Internet....
AJ Brooks: I think the internet model is what will eventually emerge
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Dan--excellent point. LL needs to address this b/c I get 17 year olds now.
Profdan Netizen: I do every semester, Iggy.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia too :D
CathyWyo1 Haystack: The case western instance is different they needed security due to medical record an discussion
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: funny how fast they turn 18, eh?
AJ Brooks: they also paid a whopping sum of money to get that SL behind the firewall set up
Bill Friis: Yup, it will be a 3D internet.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Cathy, thanks for that correction--and it's a great example of why Case's model was good for that application
CathyWyo1 Haystack: @ dan philosophically the institutions that i have worked in believe that if a student is in a college level class then they are treated as and should be have as adults
Kev Juno: Its not just the adult content. Some EDU sites would like to have material locked down to just specific classes. Using Opensim lets us integrate easier with institutional databases to pre-populate classes, use institutional login credentials, etc.
AJ Brooks: @Cathy, the law does not agree
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Hmm seems that LL is isolating SL from rich and ever expanding metaverses. Those metaverses are linking together and breaking down the boundaries.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: I was 17 when I started college it was no different I had the expectations as an adult
Profdan Netizen: @Cathy, nor does SL agree.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: I Have never heard of any law that covers that
Prospero Frobozz: RobertKlein : I can see that that might happen, but I don't think it has happened yet
Prospero Frobozz: SL is the richest metaverse right now
RobertKlein Dogpatch: it is happening
CathyWyo1 Haystack: I am talking about college classrooms
Ungo Azambuja: I was 17 too--back in the day
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and we have helicopter parents who also want us to exercise "En loco parentis" duties or they will sue us.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: and expectations in colleges
Katie Fenstalker: *RKlein how happening?
RobertKlein Dogpatch: many of the regions in OSgrid are hypergridded
AJ Brooks: you're talking about treating 17 years olds as adults
Bill Friis: No metaverse is an island.
Prospero Frobozz: helicopter parents should be shot :)
AJ Brooks: thats all well and good in theory, but the law does no treat them that way
CathyWyo1 Haystack: in college classrooms and environments
Prospero Frobozz: that's my education platform
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: that is one reason Metaplace is a good bet
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: you cannot even remove an avatar's clothing
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and you'd not want to :)
AJ Brooks: lol
Katie Fenstalker: MP for 17 yrs olds?
CathyWyo1 Haystack: the number of 17 years olds we may actually see would be small
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I think minors can register
Kali Pizzaro: in the UK it is 16, you can get married at 16
Profdan Netizen: Not so for CCs Cathy--we get a lot of dual enrolled students.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I noticed that Raph has added zoning by content recently
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Metaplace TOS: http://metaplace.com/information/terms_service
CathyWyo1 Haystack: off topic anyway I guess my point is that we would not limit ourselves because of under aged students
Jetty Shoreman: You can marry in some states in the US at 16, not sure of the percentage.
Kev Juno: @RobertKlein there is a list of hypergrid connection points at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Public_Hypergrid_Nodes
Kali Pizzaro: @jetty cheers
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Good point Kev
CathyWyo1 Haystack: 95-99% of our students would be considered adults
Katie Fenstalker: y
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Also on the OSgrid.org site
Emma Altstatter: awesome dialogue; thoroughly enjoying; but I have to log off; good nitey nite everyone
Profdan Netizen: @Cathy, but the point is you cannot use SL in a class with students under 18. They can't participate.
Prospero Frobozz: Re: crossing grids and the TOS and all of that
Prospero Frobozz: What is the TOS for the Internet?
Bill Friis: Adios, Emma.
Prospero Frobozz: I think that's the terms we should be thinking in for the future
Prospero Frobozz: Granted that Linden Lab may not want to think in those terms, or any other provider of a virtual world.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: okay got it: must be 13 or older: http://www.metaplace.com/information/privacy_policy
CathyWyo1 Haystack: chances are they would not enroll in the class then
Profdan Netizen: Sure they would.
AJ Brooks: of course they would
CathyWyo1 Haystack: or an alternate assignment would be created some college/universities do that
Katie Fenstalker: alternate assignments.
AJ Brooks: thats unfair - to the student and the teacher
Simargl Talaj: Expecting professors to provide alternate assignments may be a bit much.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: it's a moot point
Prospero Frobozz: But, ultimately, the metaverse is going to be an interconnected virtual world that is hosted lots and lots of places, not a single service that you log into -- similar to the web, but with a real sense of presence, and with the concept of the agent as an identity
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I hope we can get back to other VWs...any others that let minors in?
Profdan Netizen: Yeah, but I wouldn't, not fair for the student.
AJ Brooks: we need to find a way to include these students
CathyWyo1 Haystack: in opinion and should not be a driver
Simargl Talaj: There are some 16-year-old college students.
Jetty Shoreman: SL ought to have a registration process for whole classes - that might avoid the problem.
AJ Brooks: @propsero - yes, the internet model
Kali Pizzaro: what if you wanted to talk about something in the classroom in rl that is considered adult. Do you put the 17 year olds out?
Ping Exonar: openSim-ReactionGrid is safe for minors
CathyWyo1 Haystack: run your stats and find out how many
Prospero Frobozz: AJ : or, the web model anyway. The Internet is the substrate on which all of this stuff runs :)
AJ Brooks: bleck!
Ungo Azambuja: I had a 15-yr-old last year
CathyWyo1 Haystack: ultimatley everyone has the right to establish their policies as how best suits their institutions
Ungo Azambuja: as a stude, I mean
Tgc10 Bermann: can we stick to virtual worlds, i came here to learn about VW not about 17 year olds
Bill Friis: But the model is that anybody can host a node in the metaverse.
Katie Fenstalker: lol
Kali Pizzaro: haha fair point TGC
AJ Brooks: tg - this is an important part of the conversation, tho
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: there should be an exception for minors in college courses that use SL--a LL waiver that they share with colleges and universities
Jetty Shoreman: @Cathy - definitely an institutional decision
Profdan Netizen: Agreed, Iggy.
AJ Brooks: we have 17 year old who need to have access to these virtual worlds
Katie Fenstalker: like waver idea.
Prospero Frobozz: Bill : right... and you can sort of do that now with OpenSim. You could run your own OpenSim regions at your college, and have your classes there, and optinally connect to other broader grids via hypergrid if you wanted to
Prospero Frobozz: And let people outside your univ come in via hypergrid, if you wanted to
CathyWyo1 Haystack: I like the waiver idea..like a field trip
CathyWyo1 Haystack: waiver
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I think our Linden guests recently talked about something for European students along those lines
RobertKlein Dogpatch: Prospero is correct
Kev Juno: This is where alternatives like Opensim works well with age issues. If I can set up a sim on my desktop that only my class can connect to, I don't hav to worry about the age issues. It's already restricted to my class.
RobertKlein Dogpatch: You can have "walled gardens".
Prospero Frobozz: If you're hosting your own grid, of course you don't have to worry about whether or not your students are allowed on the grid -- you can set whatever age/membership restrictions you want.
Zotarah Shepherd: If a student is mature enough to be ion college at 17 or even 15 then they should also be responsible enough to have a waiver to be in the main grid for classes.
Kali Pizzaro: could you not lock the avatar in the private classroom or area. like you can lock others out???
Olivia Hotshot: Is Open sim available to both PC and Mac?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Olivia, yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and Linux too
Olivia Hotshot: ty
Katie Fenstalker: I don't want a walled garden. the whole point is the unwalled thing.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: ultimately open sims are an option for institutions that see this as an issue
Prospero Frobozz: Kali : you could lock them in by running your own grid and not running hypergird
AJ Brooks: @katie - agree
Kali Pizzaro: maybe that solves it. lock the students in
AJ Brooks: we miss out on the content
Bill Friis: I find it easy to build websites. When I look at Open Sim, I back quielty away.
Kali Pizzaro: rrihgt
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Cathy, or for those who need a special build for cheap, and don't need a wider world
Prospero Frobozz: Yes, Opensim is much harder to run than it is to build a website
Kali Pizzaro: thanks prospero
CathyWyo1 Haystack: that is true
Olivia Hotshot: Did i miss if someone mentioned Wonderland yet or not? I keep getting called away
Prospero Frobozz: Running OpenSim is more like setting up and running apache -- and still harder than that
Simargl Talaj: /interested in what dissuades Bill.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I can see such applications w/o the mature content issue even being involved
Zotarah Shepherd: How can we take students to other educational builds if they are locked in?
AJ Brooks: No - and Wonderland is important to bring up
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, I'd like to hear more about Wonderland too
AJ Brooks: they ahve the content sharing
Olivia Hotshot: TY AJ
Prospero Frobozz: If anybody has experience with it
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: cost motivated Rezzable's choice to use OS instead of SL for the "big build" for Tut
Bill Friis: The instructional always seem to assume I know things I don't know.
Kali Pizzaro: I suppose it depends on what you are teaching Zotora
Kev Juno: opensimulator is available with a windows installer, or a source download for linux. Not sure about mac. Clients of course exist for mac.
AJ Brooks: anyone been into Sun's Project Wonderland?
Prospero Frobozz: Zotarah : you can't :) That's why right now people want to be in SL. That's why we need grid interoperability, or we just need everybody educational to run OpenSim and use hypergrid....
Zotarah Shepherd: True Kali
Olivia Hotshot: I am on the Wonderland listserv, and have to say the educational group is very strong and supportive
Katie Fenstalker: what is Wonderland?
RobertKlein Dogpatch: yes I have used wonderland
AJ Brooks: Sun's Project Wonderland
Profdan Netizen: I've checked out Wonderland briefly.
Prospero Frobozz: (When I hear "both Windows and Mac", I think, "we have both kinds of music, Country *and* Western!" OpenSim works fully on Linux as well....)
Katie Fenstalker: wha't it like?
AJ Brooks: it allows sharing of documents in world
RobertKlein Dogpatch: it is tricky
Ungo Azambuja: lol, prosper
Profdan Netizen: Andn web pages also, AJ.
AJ Brooks: is it?
Zotarah Shepherd: I am also on the Wonderland list serve but it is not very active or informative to me.
Bill Friis: When I have been on Wonderland, it has not run well for me.
Prospero Frobozz: the core wonderland dev team is very small
AJ Brooks: tells us about it?
Prospero Frobozz: But it's an open source effort
Katie Fenstalker: what's there?
Prospero Frobozz: I'm not sure how much pickup it has among open source developers, though
Ungo Azambuja: url for Wonderland?
AJ Brooks: the big sell on it is the document sharing
RobertKlein Dogpatch: the biggest sell point for wonderland is the built in soft phones
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz: So there are two big sells :)
Kev Juno: I had a demo of wonderland. Couldn't figure out how it was any better than SL
RobertKlein Dogpatch: for conferencing apps
RobertKlein Dogpatch: LOL
AJ Brooks: collaboration on documents is a MAJOR thing, Kev
Prospero Frobozz: Yes
Profdan Netizen: Group voice is supposed to be much more manageable, also.
Bill Friis: In Wonderland we could be working on a spreadsheet together.
Prospero Frobozz: That's something we over in MICA want
Teachergirl Razor: https://lg3d-wonderland.dev.java.net/
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @Prospero--Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys....Western. Del McCoury...country :P
Prospero Frobozz: Note that wonderland is a platform, not a world
AJ Brooks: define
Ignatius Onomatopoeia channels Pappy Enoch for a second ;P
Prospero Frobozz: Sun works on the software, but there's no place that is Wonderland, like Second Life is a place
Prospero Frobozz: It's more like OpenSim in that sense
AJ Brooks: so wonderland = opensim
RobertKlein Dogpatch: each wonderalnd is a place
AJ Brooks: ah - got it
RobertKlein Dogpatch: like a conference center
RobertKlein Dogpatch: center
Prospero Frobozz: I don't know if there are any public wonderland instances out there, the way there are public OpenSim grids
AJ Brooks: NMC is playing with it
Kev Juno: What we need for document collaboration is a Google Gadgets interface in LSL.
AJ Brooks: although they might resent my mentioning it as "playing"
Olivia Hotshot: would love google share inworld
Profdan Netizen: Also, live web browser in world.
Prospero Frobozz: AJ ; that's kind of sad that they might resent that... I would often talk about "playing with data" or "playing with algorithms"
RobertKlein Dogpatch: There have been some advancements in application sharing using the RelXtend platform
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: @AJ..."PLAY" is the key to engaging these students..if only our snobby colleagues would understand that!
RobertKlein Dogpatch: RealXtend
AJ Brooks: Before we go our own ways, as we come to the end of the meeting. Join us next week, here, at 2:30pm SLT, when you special guest moderator Olivia Hotshot guides a discussion on "Are We Our Avatars".
Prospero Frobozz: THERE IS NO LEARNING WITHOUT PLAY
Prospero Frobozz: oops
Prospero Frobozz: typing is so hard
Olivia Hotshot sympathizes with Prospero
AJ Brooks: @prospero lol
Eliasdehart Sixpence: Google wave inworld
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: see Raph's book...A Theory of Fun
Katie Fenstalker: great Olivia!
Eliasdehart Sixpence: fully integrated
Katie Fenstalker: looking forward to it!
Bill Friis: There is no play without learning.
Olivia Hotshot: =)
Zotarah Shepherd: I look forward to hearing you next week Olivia
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: http://www.theoryoffun.com/ This will be the future...ludology
Profdan Netizen: That would be cool, Elias.
AJ Brooks: so it seems open sim is the talk of the town, other than SL, huh?
Olivia Hotshot: ty Zotarah and Katie
RobertKlein Dogpatch: yes
Katie Fenstalker: ty iggy
Kev Juno: I think that is because opensim and second life are compatible.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: windows vista bleccch
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good luck, Olivia! AJ and I are crossing the ocean to different places :D
Katie Fenstalker: waves at Olivia
CathyWyo1 Haystack: has anyone mentioned blue mars??
Olivia Hotshot: has anyone used Just Leap In ?
CathyWyo1 Haystack: what is it like
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Blue Mars has no end UGC
Prospero Frobozz: OpenSim has the advantage of having a flexible architecture (although not fuly realized yet), as well as being tangibly instantiated out there. wonderland might be interesting, but it's harder to experiment with
AJ Brooks: blue mars has no content creation for users
Viv Trafalgar: still in Beta Cathy -
CathyWyo1 Haystack: ugc?
Katie Fenstalker: what is blue mars?
AJ Brooks: USER GENERATED CONTENT
Viv Trafalgar: user generated content
Olivia Hotshot: user generated content
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: It's Vista only--high graphics and RAM requirements.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and
Prospero Frobozz: Unicorn Generated Content -- it's important for fantasy games
AJ Brooks: lol
CathyWyo1 Haystack: oh that's no good
Bill Friis: hehe
Zotarah Shepherd: hahaha
Viv Trafalgar: and blue mars filters and approves all content created -
Olivia Hotshot: oh my =)
RobertKlein Dogpatch: There are many OpenSim projects going on it is hard to keep up with them all
AJ Brooks: filters, viv?
Simargl Talaj: :)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's not for education...Hamlet Au wrote about it and he agrees it's a game-making virtual world
Viv Trafalgar: well, they will vet all content
CathyWyo1 Haystack: no unicorrns thats terrible
Prospero Frobozz: Right, another reason that OpenSim is the most interesting non-SL world is that it's open source, and you can run your own instance of it if you want to -- you're not locked into a service provider
Viv Trafalgar: that's their 'how to keep things graphically clean'
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Blue Mars will have a easy-to-use interface, like a Wii
Prospero Frobozz: Of course, I guess lots of administrators like to be locked into a service provider for things, because they have this idea that that's how it's supposed to work....
Olivia Hotshot: i don't want to look like a wii-vatar
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: you have to be vetted to make content and use tools like Maya
RobertKlein Dogpatch: IBM uses an OpenSim based environment
Katie Fenstalker: does anything use a Wii interface?
Viv Trafalgar: it's a different way to enforce standards
CathyWyo1 Haystack: yes prospero admin likes to sign six year agreements on lms
AJ Brooks: lol
Prospero Frobozz: Katie : I'd love somebody to create a SL client that used a couple of motion sensor Wiimote like devices strapped to your arms to do puppetering. (Well, that would require server changes too.)
Prospero Frobozz: Cathy : that's very sad.
Katie Fenstalker: Wiimote sounds fascinating for SL.
AJ Brooks: Folks, thats all for us today. I have to run off to another meeting. Please feel free to stay here and chat on. I'll be back in two weeks, Olivia will be here next Tuesday.
Bill Friis: I want an Emotive helmet / SL interface.
CathyWyo1 Haystack: that is how we create bb monsters
Kali Pizzaro: i know someone whi is working on that but i am sworn to secrecy hehe
Prospero Frobozz: Kali : if I torture your avatar, will you talk?
Katie Fenstalker: (tell us tho....)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good article on Open Sim at New World notes; http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2009/05/leaving-second-life.html?cid=6a00d8341bf74053ef01156fb41fb6970c
Prospero Frobozz: Is this like 24, or like the real world? does torture work?
Kev Juno: gotta go. Bye
Kali Pizzaro: oh i would need to talk to the person first @ prospero
Eliasdehart Sixpence: bye
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: ya'll take care...I'll post the transcript before I leave for my trip
Zotarah Shepherd laughs
CathyWyo1 Haystack: about torturing them?
Katie Fenstalker: what's all the stuf out in the plaza there?
Bill Friis: SL torture is just a reliable as in RL
Prospero Frobozz: hee hee
