Transcript of March 10, 2009 Second Life Roundtable Discussion.
Topic: Art and Education in SL.
Featured guests: Anthony Fontana (SL: AnthonyFontana Chevalier), Ken Hudson (SL: Kenny Hubble) and Mick Brady (SL: Chrome Underwood)
Photos Courtesy of Friday Karu
Links Mentioned:
Doomsday Sorbet: I guess I should have worn green...lol
Johnny Sabetha: Hello All
Zelq Razorfen: hello!
Margaret Michalski: Don't be shy! have a seat by the table.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: the table should really be scripted to get bigger eh?
Margaret Michalski: Aj! is the specialist at that
Doomsday Sorbet: it will if a few more people join us...
Margaret Michalski: Plus I think that he is the only one that can change it.
Margaret Michalski: Everyone in the stands please come down to the table
Geoff Lumley: Hello all
Geoff Lumley: This is cosy :-)
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: thanks everyone for coming!
Johnny Sabetha: Your Welcome
SeaRose Charisma: thanks for the invite
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: If you haven't seen this...
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Recently the arts were featured in the New York Times Magazine.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/magazine/08fluno-t.html
Doomsday Sorbet: that was a very well done article.
Dusty Artaud: is there voice here?
Profesora Farigoule: oh - cool , i missed it
Profesora Farigoule: the article that is
Margaret Michalski: Carolrb, Kenny and Tommy come on down.
Margaret Michalski: Hi Pathfinder!
Pathfinder Linden: what was a very well done article?
Kenny Hubble: Hello everyone
Pathfinder Linden likes well done articles
Marty Snowpaw: NY times piece
Kenny Hubble: hi pathfinder
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: hey kenny
Marty Snowpaw: Hi Ken
Pathfinder Linden: the one with Filthy Fluno?
Pathfinder Linden: NYTimes Magazine?
Marty Snowpaw: yes
Kenny Hubble: Hey Marty!
Lori Zaks: yes, that's the one..
Pathfinder Linden: yes, that totally rocked
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Hi Pathfinder
Doomsday Sorbet: ok...ususlly the table grows...
Pathfinder Linden looks at the roundtable...is it supposed to be micro-sized?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Did anyone attend the party for the article release last Friday?
Weave Oldrich: aren't you glad you used Dial? (dating myself)
Kenny Hubble: Where's the table master?
Doomsday Sorbet: this is getting snug...
Pathfinder Linden: this is hilarious...
Doomsday Sorbet: loling...
Marty Snowpaw: I think the article is part of the reason we have seen the big increase in sign ins
Margaret Michalski: I just sent Aj a note hopefully he will be here soon
Kenny Hubble: Is this table the SL version of a VW?
Pathfinder Linden: someone please take pictures and put up on flickr
TommyJW Ninetails: Looks like I missed the stopping of the music!
Kenny Hubble: volkswagon
Doomsday Sorbet: where's AJ to help us?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: will do
Jarrad Voom: More like a telephone booth
Pathfinder Linden: there are still seats at the table!
Chrome Underwood: haha
Kenny Hubble: I'm pretty sure the table is supposed to grow too
Pathfinder Linden: one right to the right of me
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: shooting pics... of our cozy arts roundtable
Carolrb Roux: it is
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: they keep multiplying
Pathfinder Linden: the table is jut malfunctioning. the diameter is supposed to grow
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I thought so
JeanClaude Vollmar laughs, "I see it's cuddle time."
Teri Boxen: fhehe
Doomsday Sorbet: maybe we should put on some tiny avatars...
Chrome Underwood: hmmmmmm
Chrome Underwood: no room at the inn
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: lol
Pathfinder Linden: speaking of art and education, did folks see the think piece I wrote for the Journal of Virtual Worlds Research on art in SL?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: there's a seat over here
JeanClaude Vollmar: Hey, how many avs can we put in a VW?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I did
Carolrb Roux: :-)
Kenny Hubble: Yes
Adra Letov: Please post the links to these articles!!
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Well AJ isn't here so I'm just gonna start this
Zelq Razorfen: oh, could you reshare that link?
Friday Karu: Yes, please reshare.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: We're doing chat only today, no voice
Pathfinder Linden: cool. I am hoping that raises some awareness among researchers
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I'm Anthony Fontana. Somewhere here is Kenny Hubble and Chrome Underwood
Lori Zaks: Is there voice today?
Kenny Hubble: Hello!@
Carolrb Roux: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/magazine/08fluno-t.html
Pathfinder Linden: "Artistic Expression in Second Life: What can we learn from creative pioneers of new mediums?" http://www.jvwresearch.org/v1n3_lester_linden.html
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: We're just gonna say a few things about the arts to start us off
Margaret Michalski: Hi Zotarah!
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: When I started showing work in 2005, there were some galleries, but the best way to show work was at show and tell
Zelq Razorfen: looks like a journal I need to follow, thanks!
Pathfinder Linden: my pleasure Zelq
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Still today I think that's what helps artists in SL, as people like brooklyn is watching hold crit sessions
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and Universities like ours get students feedback by inviting others to crit their work
Zotarah Shepherd: The Table needs to expand
Pathfinder Linden: we can fit more!
Pathfinder Linden: lol
Kenny Hubble: more more more
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: By 2007, there were people asking me if I was a real artist or just rolplaying one
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and now, I think all of that continues to blur
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Kenny...
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: then Chrome...
Kenny Hubble: Thanks anthony
Chrome Underwood: hey anthony
Kenny Hubble: and great to get so close to you all today
Kenny Hubble: for me the question of art in sl and vw
Kenny Hubble: is a complex one
AJ Brooks: sorry everyone
Kenny Hubble: understanding the relationship between
Lori Zaks: ah!!
Kenny Hubble: the avatar and the environment
Lori Zaks: much better!
Pathfinder Linden breathes again
Kenny Hubble: I CAN BREATHE!
Zotarah Shepherd: Oh Hi Margaret
AJ Brooks: give me one more moment folks - I'll let you all get settled
Kenny Hubble: however
Kenny Hubble: my experience in sl
Oronoque Westland: just when we were getting cozy!
Kenny Hubble: from really the moment i began to work here
JeanClaude Vollmar: Help! LOL
AJ Brooks: as the meeting was to start - my super came to the door
AJ Brooks: LOL
Kenny Hubble: has been a creative enterprise
Kenny Hubble: with an early project
Kenny Hubble: with brown u
AJ Brooks: i know we kinda got started already but I'm going to hit the reset button
Profdan Netizen: Have your super join us, AJ!
AJ Brooks: and start over
Kenny Hubble: the open source museum of open source art
AJ Brooks: Hi everyone, and welcome to this weeks SL Education Roundtable.
Kenny Hubble: which really sparked my excitement about the possibilities
AJ Brooks: These meetings are made possible by the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University. We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an
hour. Sometimes we have a topic, sometimes its an open forum.
Kenny Hubble: and i look forward to your comments abou tthis topic
AJ Brooks: Today's meeting topic is Art and Education in SL. featured guests are Anthony Fontana (SL: AnthonyFontana Chevalier), Ken Hudson (SL: Kenny Hubble) and
Mick Brady (SL: Chrome Underwood)
AJ Brooks: This is a public meeting, so we do keep a transcript of what is said in local chat. For a copy of older transcripts, please visit http://sler-transcripts.wikispaces.com and for more recent transcripts, please visit http://homepage.mac.com/jessid/slroundtable/
AJ Brooks: For information on FUTURE MEETINGS, there is a notecard giver on the West wall of the Amphitheater.
AJ Brooks: The SL Education Roundtable meeting happens each week, but we are looking to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: can we get what was already said the transcripts AJ?
AJ Brooks: as long as Margaret was here, yup
AJ Brooks: Please join the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE group. If you have problems finding it in search, just outside this amphitheater you will see several displays. By clicking the appropriate one you can join the group.
Marty Snowpaw: AJ can I say something about VWBPE Frist
Kenny Hubble: whew
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I think she was
TommyJW Ninetails: sl allows for the art to be multidimensional, changing shape, sound, media textures, etc. what artest wouldn't love the challenge
AJ Brooks: As the group grows, there will be announcements and such that will be exclusive to the group. I'm also open for ideas of what can bring value to the group.
AJ Brooks: Since many have asked, there is a program running here on the CHSSSouth island called the CHSSSouth FREE LAND INITIATIVE. Details can be found in the notegiver on the wall to my right (your left) and also the appropriate display located outside the amphitheater.
AJ Brooks: Please wander around the island - after the meeting or come back any time. We're currently up to 32 different educational community members.
AJ Brooks: Aside from the island we are currently on, and the land initiative, we also have two other educational islands adjoining to the north. There are also numerous learning areas on these adjoining islands, Montclair State CHSS and Montclair State CEHSADP. Wander around and enjoy.
Lori Zaks: thank you!
AJ Brooks: Join us on FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=44078263753&ref=share
AJ Brooks: Speaking of social networking tools, thanks to Olivia Hotshot for putting together a Flickr group for the SLER. I encourage everyone to join the group and to take pictures from our meeting and add them to the group. Its a great way to show, and grow, our community.
AJ Brooks: The Social Committee for the Virtual Worlds - Best Practices in Education Conference is looking for volunteers for a variety of tasks and at different skill levels. If you are interested, please contact Kavon Zenovka in world.
AJ Brooks: It seems we have somehow come up short in our text chats from past meetings. We have a large percentage of them but are, for some odd reason, missing some. If you have chat transcripts from any of the following meeting dates, please drop them to me so we can get them added to the wiki. All dates in 2008: March 11, March 18, May 13, Sept 2, Sept 9, Sept 16, Sept 30, Oct 28, Nov 4, Nov 11
AJ Brooks: Oh, yes - a belated Happy Birthday to the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE. Two weeks ago we turned ONE YEAR OLD. How time flies! :-)
AJ Brooks: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
Chrome Underwood: HB!
Oronoque Westland: HAPPY BIRTHDAY
AJ Brooks: Lets start today as we always do, by introducing ourselves. Please type into local chat your name, where you work, and what you do. Also, for today, type in the name of the avatar you USUALLY come as - if you are here as your alt.
Pathfinder Linden: wow, a year!
AJ Brooks: opps - forgo that last line
AJ Brooks: obviosuly I didn't edit it
AJ Brooks: just say who you are, where you work, and what you do
AJ Brooks: I am AJ Kelton, I'm the Director of Emerging Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University and the Coordinator of the Second Life Project for the College of Education and Human Services, also at MSU.. We're located in northern New Jersey, just fourteen miles from midtown Manhattan.
Profdan Netizen: I'm Dan Holt, professor in the writing program at Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI. I've taught online for eleven years, not yet in SL, though I'm scheduled to dive in this fall.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Hi! I'm Anthony Fontana. I'm at Bowling Green State University. I teach 2D and drawing.
Margaret Michalski: Margaret, University of Illinois at Chicago - Research information Specialist
Lori Zaks: Lori Zaks - Old Dominion University (Loreta Ulmer)
Teri Boxen: San Jose State University
Kev Juno: Kevin Lowey - University of Saskatchewan
Jarrad Voom: Jarrad Voom
Nettrice Beattie: Nettrice Beattie, Mass College of Art & Design
Marty Snowpaw: Marty Keltz content producer
Profesora Farigoule: Delaware Technical & Community College, Stanton Campus, Architectural Design Faculty, currently teaching Architectural Design Fundamentals in SL, LC Weaverling RL
Pathfinder Linden: I'm Pathfinder Linden, aka John Lester, working at Linden Lab to lead our market development in Education and Healthcare. My details: http://pathfinderlinden.com
Adra Letov: Diane nahl, University of Hawaii, Library and Information Science Program, teach and research on information behavior in virtual worlds
AJ Brooks: please keep mics muted - thanks
Carolrb Roux: Carol Rainbow ICT consultant Oxfordshire CC
Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life
Friday Karu: Chico State--teacher education & arts education
Geoff Lumley: Geof Barker-Read, Head of Academic Quality and Standards, University of Leeds, UK
FF Snook: Jennifer Hall -- Mass College of Art and Design -- teaching a variety of New Media
Zelq Razorfen: Zach Hoffman, University of Arizona, Instructional Technology, College of Medicine
Kenny Hubble: ken hudson managing director, virtual world design centre, loyalist college, senior fellow, sLAB, ontario college of art and design
Chrome Underwood: Hi, Chrome Underwood here, former art and design professor, now full time virtual and digital artist
Talus Nemeth: Jason Shipley - freelance developer/designer currently focusing on immersive edication. Based in Chicago.
Oronoque Westland: Roberta Kilkenny, I teach Caribbean History at Hunter College, City Univ of New York. HAPPY ST. PATRICK's DAY!
JeanClaude Vollmar: I'm JC (Jeff Le Blanc in RL) and work for the University of Northwestern Ohio as their VP for IT.
Doomsday Sorbet: Doomsday Sorbet, web developer, educator, and 2d 3d artist.
Fionn Bookmite: Manchester Grammar School, a British independent boys' school, I teach Latin, Greek and Ancient History
Firery Broome: University of Delaware- IT, faculty support, caretaker of the UD islands in SL
Lori Zaks: Hi, Firery!
SeaRose Charisma: Fran graduate of MSU Media Specialist Matawan Aberdeen School District
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Hi JeanClaude! A neighbor in RL!
Weave Oldrich: Weave Oldrich, Director of Systems, Delaware Tech College, in RL Ken Weaverling
AJ Brooks: excellent - great group tonight
Ullamh Shim: John O'Dowd - Law School, University College Dublin. We are building a new law school building in RL (we hope!) and I am looking into the possibilities for a parallel build in SL. We want public art in the RL building, so also - I presume - in SL.
AJ Brooks: did we miss anyone?
AJ Brooks: anyone else?
AJ Brooks: going once
AJ Brooks: going twice
AJ Brooks: Thanks everyone. One last thing, its really hard for me to respond to IMs while running the meeting. If you IM me, I promise to get back to you before I sign off.
JeanClaude Vollmar: @Anthony "Yes, you're just up the road a bit."
AJ Brooks: tonight we'll be talking about Art and Education in SL
Jacque Quijote: Jacqu Quijote (aka FL Philip Mallory Jones), Lead Design Artist, The Aesthetic Technologies Lab, Ohio U. In 2 wks I begin teaching "Art & Design Process in Synthetic Worlds (grad level)
AJ Brooks: we have three special guests, I'll let them introduce themselves, and then get the conversation rolling
AJ Brooks: Anthony?
BonnieMitchell Miles: I am BonnieMitchell Miles and I teach interactive media and 3D animation in Digital Arts at Bowling Green State University.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I said a few things earlier... but they boil down to this:
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Art in SL is still about critique and exchange - There are a few who are interseted in teh social aspects... roleplaying as artists but not making art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: AND there are SO many possibilities with the technology
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Mixing and mashing imagery, building installations, etc....
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: We're only at the beginning...
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Kenny...
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: then Chrome...
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: (and thank you all again for coming)
Kenny Hubble: hey everyone thanks for being here - i am really fascinated by the relationship between the avatar and the environment
Chrome Underwood: yes, thanks, everyone
Kenny Hubble: from the moment i stepped into sl it has been a creative journey, and i love the potentials that exist in this enviornment
Chrome Underwood: Iwell, I have a view of sl art that we are at the beginning of a new paradigm here
Kenny Hubble: looking forward to your comments tonight
Chrome Underwood: I'm also interested in the crossover of human identity and the avatar
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: indeed
AJ Brooks: so - three very different perspectives
Chrome Underwood: yes
Kenny Hubble: at least three
AJ Brooks: lol
Chrome Underwood: and also the new opportunities in an immersive environment
AJ Brooks: by saying YES - how many people here would consider themselves "artists"
Chrome Underwood: including collaboration
AJ Brooks: YES
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I
Nettrice Beattie: YES
Doomsday Sorbet: yea
FF Snook: yes
Profdan Netizen: As a writer, definitely.
Jacque Quijote: yes
Friday Karu: and all could include instruction in these areas for college and university students
Kenny Hubble: I think another interesting questions is, How many of you consider yourselves works of art?
Lori Zaks: at ODU, we are interested in using SL to connect our students with companies and future employers..
Johnny Sabetha: Sorry I was away for a while
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I do
IzzyLander Karu: "little" yes
Adra Letov: yes, my av is a work of art
Nettrice Beattie: I am wearing Richard Pousette-Dart right now.
Sleepy Littlething: maybe more a work in progress :)
Lori Zaks: You mean "art as a representation of life?":
Johnny Sabetha: I do not think Avi's are art
Doomsday Sorbet: in RL or SL? I practice artful doing...
Kenny Hubble: Right now, as we are in SL
Kenny Hubble: are you in a work of art
Kenny Hubble: or are you the art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I came across that question several years ago when i worked really hard to make my avatar look like me
Profesora Farigoule: I consider my Alt avatar a work of art :)
Kenny Hubble: or both?
TommyJW Ninetails: Avi's a statement - not art
Lori Zaks: I agree with Tommy
Adra Letov: a work of art with a work of art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and someone said to me - in a world where you can do anything - why look like yourself?
Friday Karu: Hmmmm..... art as reflective practioner
Lori Zaks: so.. a statement rather than an 'expression'
AJ Brooks: works of art are not statements>
Adra Letov: artful statements
Jacque Quijote: this avatar is a probe, and an implement
Profdan Netizen: I haven't pursued avis as art, but I can see a real possibility for the exploration of character and persona through avis.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: but then I had to create a machinima to explain why I'm blue...
Chrome Underwood: an av can be the deepest part of your sefl
Chrome Underwood: self
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I felt I had to
Johnny Sabetha: A single element of artistic measure does not make an artwork
AJ Brooks: why did you feel that way, Anthony?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I think Its because I'm a storyteller really
Kenny Hubble: I like "probe" Jacque, yes, probe approximates something that we can't quite know, the where our self ends and our representation begins
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I had just finished my graphic novel and wanted the body
Fionn Bookmite: Looking like yourself can be deceptive, because your avi is not yourself
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: to be walking art. the residual art left in-world
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: http://anthonyfontana.com/video.aspx (sorry for the plug)
AJ Brooks: this is interesting, what do you all think of this "[14:49] Johnny Sabetha: A single element of artistic measure does not make an artwork"
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: but all the work can be seen there
Jacque Quijote: I use probe in the sense of it reaches out into the ether and retrieves and interacts for the FL me
Chrome Underwood: my avatar is me at the age where I left off a promising art career
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I usually get people asking how/why i look this way and I can point them to the narrative
Chrome Underwood: and he is now taking up where I left off
Friday Karu: I understood it to be much like a statement I make to my student teachers. Just because you use art materials doesn't make it an art lesson.
Kenny Hubble: None of us look exactly like ourselves in sl, it's an interpretation, don't you think?
Kenny Hubble: I like that Friday
Doomsday Sorbet: of course, we are cartoons
Friday Karu: There has to be an anchor, a focus, and... a probe, as you say.
Kenny Hubble: a perspective?
Kenny Hubble: a vanishing point?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: well... sign, signifier... it is what you're given to identify with others or not
Chrome Underwood: a character in a novel
Adra Letov: art talk somehow sounds exclusionary in the age of user-generated content
Chrome Underwood: the author forms a special relationship with
Friday Karu: In RL we have rationales and reasons for what art situations and tasks we create.
Friday Karu: We can do that here, too.
Kenny Hubble: Exclusionary or inaccurate Adra?
Johnny Sabetha: How many people here have online portfolios they want to share?
Sleepy Littlething: does anyone use SL in their art teaching?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Please... share
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I do
Jacque Quijote: I do
AJ Brooks: My alt has a gallery with my non-virtual world photos
AJ Brooks: Gallery Beleza
Chrome Underwood: http://chromeneversleeps.com
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I have used SL for interviews between my students and artists working in SL
Friday Karu: moving very close to it---that is why I am here today--to find out from others
Profesora Farigoule: it depends on one's definition of art - in RL art can be inclusionary and user driven also , don't you think?.
Zotarah Shepherd: The Art Theory build on WIRED is truly awesome, if you have not yet seen it.
Nettrice Beattie: i am teaching visual language
Jacque Quijote: use SL in teaching
Nettrice Beattie: 2D and 4D
Nettrice Beattie: illusion of motion, animation
Kenny Hubble: You all look wonderful, by the way - it's a flowering here at the roundtable
Johnny Sabetha: I do not think SL is currently a good mode of learning
Chrome Underwood: hah
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: We interviewed Juria Yoshikawa and Jeff Abattoir
Zotarah Shepherd: Why Johnny?
Nettrice Beattie: created optical toys for animation
IzzyLander Karu: just out of curiosity, by show of YES, how many here would consider a programmer an artiest, programming an art form?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I have also had my students examine symbols in context... how they "mean" in SL vs RL
Nettrice Beattie: zoetrope
Doomsday Sorbet: I have a gallery in SL where I can work in a scale I cannot afford in RL. At the same time, while this is great, experimentally, I wonder at the value of these inworld "paintings"
IzzyLander Karu: a program a work of wart?
SeaRose Charisma: Johnny why did you say that SL is not a good learning envoriment?
Nettrice Beattie: thaumatrope, phenikistiscope
Zelq Razorfen: it depends on the medium, but YES, programming can definitely be art
Doomsday Sorbet: Programming is often an art and there is code art, but, that gets you into the question...is everything done skillfully an art?
TommyJW Ninetails: sl is best as a distance independent communication tool
Johnny Sabetha: For non participatory things it is fine, like history but not much ese
Adra Letov: "useful arts" is a classification
Adra Letov: "folk art"
Profdan Netizen: Good point, Doomsday. If everything is art, nothing is art.
JeanClaude Vollmar: I'm a programmer, grew up as one. I guess I never thought of it as being artistic, but it is a creative process.
Johnny Sabetha: It is a glorified chat room
IzzyLander Karu: that's just it, we're talking art, but that is art?
Adra Letov: but SL is great for collaborative learning!
Freda Bluebird: what about as a simulator?
AJ Brooks: WEll - Johnny, I'd respectfully disagree - but tonight's meeting isn't' about SL as a teaching medium, we can talk about that another night. Lets get back to art. Do our speakers want to try to define (or undefine) art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I tell my students that they can post their work on a website... but they aren't going to bump into anyone there. In SL there's a much great opportunity for discussion and dialogue
Fionn Bookmite: I think we have to be careful that SL doesn't end up as a library
Chrome Underwood: I think the word creative is more appropriate than artist in sl
Adra Letov: my students love working together inworld
Lori Zaks: that's where I think SL is.. a simulation..
TommyJW Ninetails: does that mean is god is everywhere - god is nowhere?
Gwenette Writer: i totally disagree Johnny sl is a MEDIUN it is a painters dream and I do not think it is only a chat room at all
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I have also found that SL is a good platform for collaborative arts
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Have you been to the SL ballet?
IzzyLander Karu: JeanClaude, how many times have you looked at some code and said "that's a beautiful code"?
Adra Letov: agreed Gwenette
Gwenette Writer: yes collaboration here is a free "high" hahah
Oronoque Westland: since history is made by human interaction I find it very participatory...we are interacting here, hence we are making history (and quite artfully I must say)
Johnny Sabetha: Teach me how to paint
Adra Letov: lol
Johnny Sabetha: give me a lesson
Johnny Sabetha: right now
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I am currently working with my wife, collaborating in SL.
Friday Karu: Art includes perception skills, creative problem solving, historical cultural contexts, aesthetic valuing, and connecting these things to other areas as well.
Gwenette Writer: no problem Johnny call me:)
Nettrice Beattie: students can actually see Muybridge, construct the same toys for seeing motion
Doomsday Sorbet: Agree, Gwenette... its a medium...3d interactive virtual communication.
Nettrice Beattie: experience the same kinds of concepts as in the real world
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I have seen modelers work with musicians, scripters work with painters, etc...
Nettrice Beattie: collaborate on installations
Nettrice Beattie: interventions
JeanClaude Vollmar: I have looked at code and made that observation. *smiles
Johnny Sabetha: Anything that has to be modeled in detail has to be done outside of second life
Gwenette Writer: if you master the tools the composition abilities are amazing i am umm maybe a colorist at heart and lotsa colors here on any shape I want
Johnny Sabetha: the tools here are rudimentary at best
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Identity, immersion, installation and collaboration are the themes I think we are hinting at today
Ullamh Shim: Kenny mentioned the notion of interpretation earlier - in connection with avatars. The philosopher Joseph Raz is doing interesting work at the moment on the linkbetween interpretation and performance. I took my time mentioning that so that I could get a link: http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/conlawtheory/Raz2.pdf Some people might be interested in that. He takes an actor's interpretation of a character as his paradigm.
Lori Zaks: I don't think the focus is on the tools..
Nettrice Beattie: alpha channels in Photoshop do wonders
Talus Nemeth: the tools are designed as a jumping off point
Gwenette Writer: not in my book Johnny they are fascinating to me:)
Nettrice Beattie: i can construct anything i desire
Nettrice Beattie: except mirrors
Zelq Razorfen: while most may look at code and not see art, it can surely be found in the product of that code
Johnny Sabetha: Have you ever used another modeling program Gwen?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: thanks for the link
Gwenette Writer: I do not TRY to DO what I do in rl this is a whole new universe so to speak why walk when i can fly??
Doomsday Sorbet: There is something to working with limited tools. Artists choseoften limitations to open up new possibilities.
TommyJW Ninetails: I hope my son - when older - will use sl like communication to be mentored by the best (in the world) in whatever subject he is interested in..
Profesora Farigoule: i agree that SL is a medium... and a conte crayon is pretty rudimentary also as a tool - but that doesn't limit the art it can make
Johnny Sabetha: The principles here do not apply to any realistic production pipelines
Gwenette Writer: Yes doomsday see Ally Aeon's work it is exactly that
Carolrb Roux: I am no artist with paints etc, love machinima - but attended one in-world discussion / workshop on watercolour and earned more than I had ever before in my whole life
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: SL as a medium is a good topic
Jacque Quijote: Johny - in regards to rudimentary - one can make great work with a stick in sand, if one is good with a stick.
Friday Karu: So, Johnny, you believe that all art has a product outcome?
Johnny Sabetha: I believe that you are limited in SL
Johnny Sabetha: they have watered down the tools
Sleepy Littlething: Johnny - I can't teach you to pain from here as we don't have access to that medium, but I could ask you to create a piece of art on the table
AJ Brooks: we are also limited outside of SL
Carolrb Roux: nooooo
Friday Karu: OK.
AJ Brooks: what's the difference?
Johnny Sabetha: does that mean you can't make art here? no
Sleepy Littlething: as a sculpture
Profesora Farigoule: if all art has to have a product outcome, I need to give my MA back ;)
Sleepy Littlething: 3D
Doomsday Sorbet: there are limits, there are possibilities. lets talk about the possibilities..
Sleepy Littlething: which we could discuss and alter as you work
Chrome Underwood: do any artists here try to bring their creations out into rl?
Sleepy Littlething: we could also build it collaboratively
Talus Nemeth: what's wrong with using tools outside of SL to accomplish tasks?
Profdan Netizen: And, of course, SL is early in it's dev as a MUVE. Few argued television or film had artistic potential in its early days.
Sleepy Littlething: nothing Talus
AJ Brooks: great point profdan
Johnny Sabetha: You are limited, it is watered down for a mass audience
Friday Karu: SL is an emerging tool for art and art education.
Sleepy Littlething nods
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Art imported to SL vs. Art created with SL is another theme
Gwenette Writer: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kennesaw%20University%201/128/128/2 ALLY AEON show interactive "paintings" created only with sl materials and scripts
Johnny Sabetha: I completely and utterly disagree
AJ Brooks: Johnny - why are you so stuck on SL being limited - why not look at the potential. RL is limited too - we can't fly in RL, altong with dozens of other thing
Carolrb Roux: there is nowhere else that has the scope for amalgamating art, music, scultpure etc in the same way, as cheaply and easily as in SL
Johnny Sabetha: Flying is not art
Talus Nemeth: it is if you do it right
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Filthy, who was mentioned in the recent NYT magazine article, looks at his screen of SL while creating works that then get imported into sl
Chrome Underwood: I just had a show of my sl work in rl
Fim Fischer is Offline
Chrome Underwood: and will be in another show this summer
Johnny Sabetha: Thats like say walking is art
Friday Karu: I am not talking about what an avatar does.
IzzyLander Karu believes just making sense of the chat log is an art in itself !
Gwenette Writer: I can teach Johnny to paint here hahahha paint = color yes??
Chrome Underwood: is anyone else showing in rl?
Oronoque Westland: we are not born fully developed, media does not appear in our environment fully developed...we interact with it, shape it, move it forward...why should SL
be any different?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: artists like AM Radio are creating immersive installations that HAVE to be experiences with your avatar
Friday Karu: I am talking about the gal behind the avatar. :-)
Kenny Hubble: As to the artistic potential of vw, what do people think of the environments as a whole as the art form that will dominate the next decades, rather than the constituent parts, even the photographs that we take here and display within sl
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I show a bunch chrome
AJ Brooks: Ok - well, we need to put the kibosh on this part of the discussion because it will only server to divide the discussion in ways that do not work well for text chat. The guests are tyring to get us back on topic, so I think we owe them that
Chrome Underwood: yeah, anthony?
Chrome Underwood: in what form?
Doomsday Sorbet: Filty seems to be a classic painter and SL is his muse.
Nettrice Beattie: to take a Pousette-Dart painting, deconstruct, and reconstruct as a dress IS art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: @doomsday indeed
Carolrb Roux: everyone who creates machinima shows in RL on You Tube or similar
Johnny Sabetha: http://www.JonathanSabella.com
Nettrice Beattie: it is moving from 2D to 3D
Chrome Underwood: yeah
Chrome Underwood: ok
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: then there are others who are mixing realities
Chrome Underwood: yes
Talus Nemeth: to our guests: what are your opinions on some of the performance art going on in SL?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: showing SL as part of an RL installation
Chrome Underwood: the 72dpi format is a problem for me
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: performance is hard work in sl
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: anything live is hard work
Chrome Underwood: I am a large format digital artist
Carolrb Roux: some music concerts have been very good
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: With machinima it takes a lot fo time to create several good minutes
Kenny Hubble: Second Front should be mentioned for their excellent early recognition of performance in vw
Talus Nemeth: one of my colleagues is part of the second front group
Chrome Underwood: but am now showing sl work up to 6 feet wide
Talus Nemeth: ah
Kenny Hubble: as should our friends the griefers, who are the dadaists of SL
Profesora Farigoule: the Brooklyn Is Watching SL exhibit is a good example of combining RL and SL exhibitions
TommyJW Ninetails: I see artistic expression in the landscapes and building created here in sl
Chrome Underwood: yes
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: to do it live, takes practice and timing... but that may change as machinima may become live one day
AJ Brooks: ok - lets not bring the SLED list discussion here - LOL
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: all the actions recorded to the point that you may move your camera anywhere
SeaRose Charisma: explain SLEd to me
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: IBM is working on this
Doomsday Sorbet: yes, Chrome,72dpi can be a limitation... from a traditional standpoint -- my 2d works have detail that is lost in the upload here
AJ Brooks: Second Life Education Listserve
Pathfinder Linden: Second Life Educators Mailing List: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Chrome... can you talk a bit about imagery taken from SL?
AJ Brooks: oh yes
AJ Brooks: great
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and manipulated in photoshop or displayed in the RL?
Gwenette Writer: I do sim development as I do a rl painting it is exactly the same for me visually as we dDO see it on a flat screen a series of painting more or less
Chrome Underwood: I have a new system to work in higher resolution in sl
Chrome Underwood: yes
Chrome Underwood: you can see my work here...
Gwenette Writer: share pls chrome:)
Chrome Underwood: http://www.chromeneversleeps.com
AJ Brooks: lol - great name
Chrome Underwood: I just had a show in Berlin
Gwenette Writer: def sleep pls hahahah
Gwenette Writer: define
Kenny Hubble: greatname!
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: grats!
Chrome Underwood: and am working on a show in Santa Barbara this summer
Chrome Underwood: all sl work
Chrome Underwood: large format
AJ Brooks: sl work you are bringing out into the nvw
Doomsday Sorbet muses... I would LOVE to do some live collaborative performance in SL... the possibilities are awesome, the reality is lag...
Chrome Underwood: what I am doing is using the panoramic photo technique\
Chrome Underwood: to get small slices of imagery
Chrome Underwood: then stitching them together
Chrome Underwood: and mixing them up with rl imagery
Chrome Underwood: some recent examples can be seen on my blog site
Gwenette Writer: lag is art in time:)
Chrome Underwood: haha
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: So sl becomes an element within the digital imagery of the work/
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: ?
Chrome Underwood: yes
Chrome Underwood: I am focusing on the human figure
Chrome Underwood: using the avatar
Doomsday Sorbet: lol
Chrome Underwood: to reconnect with realism
Chrome Underwood: in a new, virtual way
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: ( kenny will talk about his open source museum next)
Chrome Underwood: cool'
Kenny Hubble: sure thing Anthony
AJ Brooks: open source museum?
Chrome Underwood: hear hear
Kenny Hubble: the open source museum of open source art was a project that i was involved in
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Chrome, is the SL figure adequate for what you are doing?
Chrome Underwood: yes
Chrome Underwood: I am working with three alts
Ullamh Shim: I had a quick look at Chrome's site, excellent work!
Chrome Underwood: and set up my own scenes with them
Kenny Hubble: with art students from brown university and it was essentially a large warehouse space gallery
Chrome Underwood: thanks!!
Kenny Hubble: that could be modified as the gallery show proceeded
Kenny Hubble: so over a course of the month, artists could not only install their pieces
Kenny Hubble: but also they could rif on the build - it ended up being amazing (and very very tall)
AJ Brooks: lol
Chrome Underwood: haha
Talus Nemeth: a
Chrome Underwood: coool
Kenny Hubble: and it involved people in the collaborative culture
JudyArx Scribe: agree -some great work chrome
Chrome Underwood: yes
Pathfinder Linden: nice
Chrome Underwood: thanks Judy
Kenny Hubble: as fostered by the sl environment
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I have an assignment planned in the same way for my intro to art in SL course this summer
JudyArx Scribe: collaborative art in sl is interesting
Kenny Hubble: http://www.3pointd.com/20070427/open-source-museum-opens-in-second-life/
Chrome Underwood: how do you teach art in sl, Anthony?
Gwenette Writer: collaborative anything is slinteresting ahha
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: that's the question Chrome...
JudyArx Scribe: the position of the "director" becomes interestingly conflated
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I am planning some structured asynchronous and sync events
Carolrb Roux: plays - such as at The Globe are works of art - hard to produce and quite amazing
JudyArx Scribe: cool A
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: some of what the students will do is explore and experience
AJ Brooks: can you give examples Anthony?
Chrome Underwood: yes
Chrome Underwood: that is best
Chrome Underwood: discovery
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: then reflect on those experiences... blog, pics etc...
Chrome Underwood: yep
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: the students will have to interact with artists (interview)
JudyArx Scribe: yes that's what we are doing as well
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and eventually plan a show, recruiting artists from the web or SL for the gallery show
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: this is "Into to Art"
Friday Karu: Are the students expected to have basic avatar skills when they begin your courses, Anthony?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: it is the first time it has been taught online at BGSU - and only then because we can do things like this with sl
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: no
Friday Karu: So that immersion and experience is part of the adventure? :-)
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: But I am using some of the global kids stuff, some of torleys videos and a tutorial area we are building on BGSU's virtual campus
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: indeed
Friday Karu: nods and smiles
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: We are also running a Virtual Architecture course this summer in sl
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: at BGSU
Gwenette Writer: can i come:)
JudyArx Scribe: so what to know more about that lol
Gwenette Writer: are you using the wikitree tool for collab building?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: It is taught by Vesta Dreamscape. She is our new resident architect on the BGSU campus
Gwenette Writer: she is from school in rl?
Pathfinder Linden has to head out...thanks for a fascinating discussion!
Kenny Hubble: Pathfinder posted a link to a very interesting book on architecture recently - could he remind us what that book is called?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: yes, her real name is Audra Magermans
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: that book is great!
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I just saw a copy this morning
Zotarah Shepherd: Welcome back Chrome
Chrome Underwood: crashed
Pathfinder Linden: oh, that book is "Space Between People"
Chrome Underwood: haha
AJ Brooks: real name?
AJ Brooks: as opposed to her unreal name?
Pathfinder Linden: http://www.amazon.com/Space-Between-People-Physical-Architecture/dp/3791339915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237328210&sr=8-1
AJ Brooks: so is Filthy Fluno not a real name?
Pathfinder Linden: a welcome book
AJ Brooks: :-)
Kenny Hubble: Thank you PF
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: sorry AJ.... using Non-sler lingo here
Pathfinder Linden: Jeff Lipsky (RL), Filthy Fluno (SL)
Pathfinder Linden: Filthy/Jeff is open about his RL name, so no privacy worries there
Nettrice Beattie: Jeff/Filthy joined my first SL class
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: so is Vesta
BonnieMitchell Miles: Audra was a Grad student of mine and her thesis was an artistic virtual world installation (way before SL)
AJ Brooks: no - that is just an AJ thing
Pathfinder Linden has to run to an appointment in RL...see you all next week!
Gwenette Writer: good excerpt form book here
Nettrice Beattie: bye
AJ Brooks: the whole "real" idea rubs me these days
Gwenette Writer: https://mail.cofa.unsw.edu.au/pipermail/empyre/2008-March/000450.html
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Bye Pathfinder!
Carolrb Roux: bye
Profdan Netizen: Bye, Pathfinder.
AJ Brooks: later path
Gwenette Writer: ALoha Pathfinder:)
Soozie Sorbet is Offline
Nettrice Beattie: i invited Filthy to my RL/SL hybrid class for visual language
AJ Brooks: incoming guest
IzzyLander Karu: Pathfinder, 1 question before you go?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: So the paradigm shift.... or aesthetics that Kenny mentioned earlier
Nettrice Beattie: to critique student's work
Nettrice Beattie: not only is there a paradigm shift
Ullamh Shim: I just got "Space Between People" the other day - a great resource.
Nettrice Beattie: there is also a new vocabulary
Nettrice Beattie: that expands and builds upon the fundamentals
Nettrice Beattie: of art and design
Doomsday Sorbet: that's great. Nettrice. Did you find the inworld or RL crtiques more beneficial?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I think it is leaning towards those topics I mentioned.... The avatar and identity - Immersive spaces (real, mixed, or perceived by av) - and collaborative arts
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I think machinima OF COURSE
Nettrice Beattie: this vocabulary is part of the critique process
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: is the other lol
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: but I think there is debate about what machinima is (or was) and what it is becoming
Nettrice Beattie: students in my visual language classes critique three times longer in SL
Nettrice Beattie: than in RL
Kenny Hubble: Machinima flips the whole thing around a bit, I think, or we approach the envirionment (or I do anyway) in a much more manipulative manner than my other creative work
Nettrice Beattie: and i am reading more of the vocabulary
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: the aesthetics of machinima is a whole area i am interested in... since the majority is shot in games
Nettrice Beattie: i can see they understand the concepts and terms
Doomsday Sorbet: intriguing... and not just because of the lag? ;-) I find lots of people I meet in SL are interested in talking about art
Friday Karu: Why do you think this occurs, Nettrice?
Nettrice Beattie: they feel more comfortable
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: But is machinima following traditional cinematic aesthetics?
Nettrice Beattie: even when they are in the same room
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I think it is moving towards a new one
AJ Brooks: WElcome Filthy
Nettrice Beattie: on their computers
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Hey filthy
Kenny Hubble: Hey Filthy is here
Filthy Fluno: hi
Nettrice Beattie: hey
Lori Zaks: Hello!
Kenny Hubble: a prior topic of conversation
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: Anyone know lev manovich's language of new media?
Doomsday Sorbet: yo, artist in the house..:-)
Jacque Quijote: Salut, Filthy!
Nettrice Beattie: yes
Nettrice Beattie: i have it
AJ Brooks: congrats on the NYT article
Nettrice Beattie: i have used it in class
Filthy Fluno: Salut Jacque
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: He states something like 'cinema is the documented experiences of humans"
AJ Brooks: For those of you who do not know Filthy work - tis quite amazing
Filthy Fluno: thx aj
Doomsday Sorbet: yes,manavich is fascinating reading...although a bit dry
Nettrice Beattie: i introduce portions that are relevant
AJ Brooks: and he recently had a very nice write up in the NYT
Zelq Razorfen: gotta run. thanks for letting me sit in on this. look foward to doing this again.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I ask... is Machinima then... the documentation of avatar memories and avatar experiences?
AJ Brooks: since we were tlkaing about SL and non-virtual world combos
AJ Brooks: it seems appropos
Gwenette Writer: this - cinema is the documented experiences of humans - is supposed to be oprofound??
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: i'm just quoting
Nettrice Beattie: also the success of any SL experience depends on the facilitator
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: manovich
Kenny Hubble: Machinima is neither Anthony, unless it is voyeuristic, that is the subjects are unaware they are being filmed
Profesora Farigoule: nettrice - couldn't agree more :)
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: but don't you view your screen from behind your avatar most of the time?
Nettrice Beattie: to introduce my students to machinima i used text from Oliver Grau's book, Virtual Art
BonnieMitchell Miles: So what is animation then?
Gwenette Writer: right yes but what is under that statement? that is where the art is anyone can hold a camera
Kenny Hubble: If it is an artist created narrative, it's a puppet show, isn't it?
Nettrice Beattie: animation is persistence of vision
Nettrice Beattie: illusion of motion
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: and in crude machinima there is an aesthetic that comes from the positioning of the camera behind the avatar
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: default mode
Gwenette Writer: the juxtaposition of form, of experience, the "eye" of the artist THAT IS the artist
Kenny Hubble: Like the fixed view of early cinema
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: yes
Freda Bluebird: sounds like an experiment
Fionn Bookmite: Excuse me...goodnight
BonnieMitchell Miles: if cinema is the documenting of human memory and machinima is an avatar's memory - what is animation?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: well... really that's what my work has been all about. experimenting with the aesthetics of machinima
Nettrice Beattie: animation is persistence of vision, illusion of motion
Chrome Underwood: I prefer to slice the moment into tiny little pieces and see them all at once
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: the fiction of human memory and experience
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: animation is a powerful thing
Nettrice Beattie: manipulation of frames
Gwenette Writer: i think memeory might be a misnomer perhaps vision??
Kenny Hubble: i don't agree with the conditional statement bonnie, so i will be silent...starting...now
AJ Brooks: if a snapshot is art - how can film/machinima not be?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: but don't the aesthetics come from cinema (for SOME - not abstract - animation)
Gwenette Writer: a snapshot is a view a perspective and yes that is unique to snapper ahha but is it art?
Nettrice Beattie: Persistence of vision refers to how we experience moving images made up of individual frames in a movie or film.
AJ Brooks: yes - a snapshot is art
AJ Brooks: no doubt
Friday Karu: Exactly my thought, Nettrice.
JudyArx Scribe: machinima is historic in that the open possibility is removed...by the maker
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: is any flickr picture art? is any shot taken by camera art?
Kenny Hubble: i think bonnie that animation might be seen as the artist stopping time, and then let it run at full speed again
BonnieMitchell Miles: not all snap shots are art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: lol
AJ Brooks: to you
AJ Brooks: but to someone else they might be
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: its the first thing a freshman learns in conceptual art class - art is whatever you say it is
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: haha
AJ Brooks: we have to define by the medium and not the content
Doomsday Sorbet: machinima = virtual verite
Kenny Hubble: you mean it isn't that?
Gwenette Writer: snap not = art unless the snap is "composed" and many are not the snap is renadom point of perspective not searched for "best" or" personal" perspectuive
AJ Brooks: i disagree gwen
Gwenette Writer: a weed is what you do not want ahha
Chrome Underwood: its more fun to make art than it is to try to define it
Doomsday Sorbet: journalistic photos... not art?
Nettrice Beattie: feel free to visit my history of animation in SL: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Boga/230/201/23
AJ Brooks: some of the best art is not planned or composed
Filthy Fluno: amen chrome
JudyArx Scribe: hear hear Chrome
Gwenette Writer: well so ANY captured image is art??
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: thanks for the link
BonnieMitchell Miles: As an art professor, this discussion about what is art and not art is a bit subjective and there is serious philosophical debates that we will not settle here
Kenny Hubble: I like the idea of SL being a composition
Chrome Underwood: haha
AJ Brooks: to someone
AJ Brooks: gwen - yes
Gwenette Writer: you are easy AJ hahaha
AJ Brooks: unless we all agree it is not - then it is not
Gwenette Writer: come see my etchings:))
AJ Brooks: LOL
Chrome Underwood: gege
AJ Brooks: etchings, under glass?
Kenny Hubble: can we agree on anything then?
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: I agree Bonnie. But the aesthetics or the search for what SL and virtual worlds can bring to us as individuals... as artists
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: takes discussion
Luciano Myanamotu: sure....need to find a time to get the ethics study done
AJ Brooks: we agree that time is almost up for this week
JudyArx Scribe: nope - yippee always something to debate
Doomsday Sorbet: We aren't going to define art I don't think ;-)
Gwenette Writer: time is an illusion
AJ Brooks: lol - NO??????
Chrome Underwood: maybe tomorrow?
Carolrb Roux: :-)
Kenny Hubble: maybe literate definitions won't touch what we do anyway
Gwenette Writer: perhaps art is in the INTENTION
Kenny Hubble: as was said earlier
Carolrb Roux: they won't
AJ Brooks: i'd like to get back to something if we can, before we do
Kenny Hubble: this is a new paradigm
Freda Bluebird: and share it in education
Nettrice Beattie: Today it's easy to image physically walking into a space to experience projected text, or images such as work by installation artists like Jennifer Steinkamp...butcan you imagine being fully immersed in virtual space? 2D, 3D, and 4D words and images would merge giving you the illusion of reality.
Profesora Farigoule: doomsday - could we EVER define art? in 100 hours?
AJ Brooks: we were talking about the mix of sl art and non-virtual world art
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: yes
AJ Brooks: Filthy has crossed that line in a big way
Chrome Underwood: maya
IzzyLander Karu: time is the material, and managing it well is good art
Nettrice Beattie: People have created virtual worlds to provide the viewer with a the illusion of being immersed in virtual space. Immersion is characterized by diminishing critical distance to what is shown and increasing emotional involvement in what is happening on screen.
Gwenette Writer: I HIGHLY recommend this short story from 1989 which is the fantastical shall we say extension of immersion and expansion of consciousness - considered groundbreaking then and it still is,. . .
Kenny Hubble: NIcely put Nettrice
Kenny Hubble: the "illusion of being in virtual space"
Profesora Farigoule: yes - nicely put
JudyArx Scribe: and to show the physical world something it might aspire to
Profesora Farigoule: will prolly quote u sometime lol
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: @nettrice aggreed
Nettrice Beattie: Russian director Andrey Tarkovsky characterized film as "emotional reality", which allows the viewers to experience a "second reality".
Ullamh Shim: Emotional involvement explains Nettrice's students' behaviour, I suppose.
Chrome Underwood: If we are now in an entirely new world - far, far, from the exhausting and boring constraints of the old - why drag all of the questions, quanderies, debates and dead ends of that intellectual world with us into this one? Why not start from scratch and redefine the entire notion of art? Even better, why not throw it away?
AJ Brooks: That was a Tarkovsky quote, Net?
Doomsday Sorbet: yes, agree
BonnieMitchell Miles: As an artist I create fully immersive spaces that the participant enters into. They are interactive spaces and there is ambisonic sound
Nettrice Beattie: Cinema is intended for direct sense and emotional perception...gives the director power over the feelings of the audience Tarkovsky thought that film, for a period of time, allow the audience to believe in an artificial reality created by technology.
IzzyLander Karu agrees with chrome
Chrome Underwood: :)
Nettrice Beattie: These filmmakers were defining what we now know as immersive virtual 3D space.
BonnieMitchell Miles: The spaces are large - 30 feet by 30 feet sometimes. So for a person, that is immersive. In SL, you can create the same experience
Jacque Quijote: "The object of art is not to reproduce reality, but to create a reality of the same intensity." -Alberto Giacometti
Kenny Hubble: Good point Bonnie - this is just the beginning of this style of interaction and the artists on the cutting edge are leading into more immersive spaces
IzzyLander Karu: if we're here to get away from constraints, why seek to strap on new ones?
JudyArx Scribe: but chrome what we cut up and slice
Gwenette Writer: looking fro link incredible sorry for delay
Chrome Underwood: yes
Nettrice Beattie: Eisenstein used language such as "immerse", "engulf", "capture", and so on...a clear indication that the medium at a more advanced technological level would have the ability to amalgamate image and spectator psychologically.
Carolrb Roux: I have to go thanks very much everyone
Doomsday Sorbet: you all do know that we are just at the beginning of virtual "life" and collaboration here, I agree with the speakers earlier about this being a new paradigm
JudyArx Scribe: and see in your work is the old and newer together
Chrome Underwood: see ya
AJ Brooks: yes - our time is up for this week - folks are welcome to stay and continue the conversation
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: (I am engulfed in this conversation)
Oronoque Westland: Have a good night everyone.
Kenny Hubble: Thank you everyone for coming out and participating
AJ Brooks: we'll stop logging when Margaret, our scribe, takes off :-)
Ullamh Shim: I suppose the lay person (I count myself as one) would think Tarkovsky and Eisenstein were talking aout something like "The Matrix".
IzzyLander Karu: g'nite Oronoque
Margaret Michalski: I will send the log to Iggy to post as usual
Gwenette Writer: arrfgh I hate biookmarks haha will send to AJ and he can post is wonderful rreading
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: But what makes a space immersive and what makes a good immersive space... are they the same (that's the study of aesthetics that will push the dialogue forward right?)
Jacque Quijote: interesting, stimulating, frustrating... see you all again.
Adra Letov: Have a good day/night everyone
AJ Brooks: thanks Margaret - stay as long as you want, but leave if you need to - I apprecaite you doing this for us
Nettrice Beattie: they were talking about the matrix
Nettrice Beattie: of time and space
Nettrice Beattie: lol
Chrome Underwood: ok, folks, thanks
Filthy Fluno: seeya jacque
Doomsday Sorbet: yes, they just didn't know it yet...
AJ Brooks: suspension of disbelief anyone?
Filthy Fluno: i need some tea
Filthy Fluno: brb
Chrome Underwood: see y'all later :)
Nettrice Beattie: The trend for Tarkovsky and others was toward extending the illusion of film beyond the visual to include other senses...the medium of film advanced beyond two-dimensional screen projection in order to intensify it's suggestive effect on the audience.
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: thanks CHROME!
Kenny Hubble: adios chrome
Chrome Underwood: yes
Chrome Underwood: YW
Chrome Underwood: nice to meet you all
Profesora Farigoule: yes ty
Chrome Underwood: bye
BonnieMitchell Miles: I will be doing a talk at the FATE conference in Portland Oregon at the beginning of Apr and will be talking about experience as art and focusing on the concept of immersion
IzzyLander Karu: thank you for sharing Chrome
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: (I will be in the audience)
Norma Underwood: isn't it possible to just look at this "world" as a medium?
Nettrice Beattie: yes
Nettrice Beattie: it is possible
IzzyLander Karu has to run home to the wife and kids he doesn't have
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: yes... but not "only" a medium, right?
Ullamh Shim: I suppose the difference between the SF "Matrix"/philosopher's "brain in a vat" scenarios and what Tarkovsky and Eisenstein were talking about is the role of the imagination in the latter.
Norma Underwood: right
Kenny Hubble: I will be in DC in April, speaking at 3DTLC and FCVW conferences - say hi if anyone is there
Kenny Hubble: i must run also
Kenny Hubble: thanks again!
AJ Brooks: later kenny
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: it's a platform for distribution and discussion - creation and immersion
Norma Underwood: but just as all mediums can be transformed and pushed, so can this
Margaret Michalski: Thank you everyone. I need to go now. It was an interesting discussion.
Kenny Hubble: AJ and Anthony! cheers
AnthonyFontana Chevalier: thanks kenny!
Nettrice Beattie: good convo
Nettrice Beattie: thanks everyone
Nettrice Beattie: bye