Transcript of March 10, 2009 Second Life Roundtable Discussion.
Topic: Games & Gaming In SL. Special guest Jeremy Braver
Photos Courtesy of Olivia Hotshot (visit her blog and Flickr photostream)
Iggy's Notes: Send corrections to iggyo -at- mac -dot- com. I was off in the wilds of upstate New York, so many thanks to Margaret Michalski, who both kept the transcript for me and moderated the meeting for AJ Brooks!
Links Mentioned:
Margaret Michalski: AJ Brooks is our usual moderator but I am filling in for him today.
Margaret Michalski: These meetings typically last and hour. So, if there is still anything you need to do. Feel free to do so.
Margaret Michalski: Pathfinder should be joining us today.
Margaret Michalski: He is a usual visitor and likes to hear our complaints : )
Jeremy Braver: well, we're gonna be having nothing but fun today, no whining tonight
Jeremy Braver: at least for the first few mins, heh
Margaret Michalski: If you have any mystitools active please disable them for the meeting.
Margaret Michalski: they tend to lag things.
Jeremy Braver: I was wowing with a friend last night and lag got her killed while I was stuck watching a low lvl npc wipe her out
Jeremy Braver: Future politician slogan: A Lag Free Metaverse!!!
Margaret Michalski: that would be good!
Jeremy Braver: Anyone play WOW here?
Margaret Michalski: Everyone in the stands please have a seat by the table.
Jeremy Braver: magic table always has a seat for a friend
Jeremy Braver: there's always one seat left, magic table
Imno Loon: May I ask who is who?
Jeremy Braver: I don't think Who is here tonight
Braver: heh, kidding
Jeremy Braver: we'll have an official intro when we begin
Margaret Michalski: Today I am playing three roles. AJ, Iggy (transcriber) and myself.
JanythKU Techsan: so, are we planning on taking over the world today?
Jeremy Braver: Janyth, today the metaverse, tomorrow the world
JudyArx Scribe: and next week?
Jeremy Braver: Next week is Scotland
JudyArx Scribe: chuckle very brave
Hackshaven Harford: Long time no hear Jeremy ;)
Jeremy Braver: hehe, 24 hours is a long time to be without the foxman, isn't it?
Hackshaven Harford: taking literally, quite disturbing
Margaret Michalski: Hi Olivia! I am filling in for AJ and Iggy
Olivia Hotshot: Jeremy, i saw you speak at the NMC last year and thought you had a lot of coolness to share. Looking forward to today
Jeremy Braver: So, I'm curious.......how many of you play video games of any sort? say yay or nay
Olivia Hotshot: Good luck Margaret! You'll be great
Talus Nemeth: yay
Dante Hydraconis: yay
Olivia Hotshot: yay
JudyArx Scribe: not really- nay
Hackshaven Harford: yay^2
Marty Snowpaw: nope
Adra Letov: nay
Imno Loon: yay
Jeremy Braver: awesome, Olivia, hope ur equally coolnessed today, hehe
Riven Homewood: Just SecondLIfe and En Garde
Dante Hydraconis: (what about a woot)
Olivia Hotshot: hehehe
Lori Zaks: used to .. when I had time..
Lori Zaks: I love them..
Jeremy Braver: woots are always acceptable
Adra Letov: don't consider SL a game
Jeremy Braver: ever rawrs
Jeremy Braver: SL doesn't count, we're all here, haha
Marty Snowpaw: neither do I
Margaret Michalski: Everyone get a seat if you can
Riven Homewood: But En Garde is definitely a game - a game played within SecondLife
Jeremy Braver: En Garde is fun, but lag kills it, what's new
Jeremy Braver: so, in honor of the founder and my friend, AJ, i'd like to start
Margaret Michalski: So, let us get started.
Margaret Michalski: Welcome to the SL Education Roundtable meeting. These meetings are made possible by the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University. We meet here each week at 2:30pm SLT for an hour. Sometimes we have a topic, sometimes its an open forum.
Margaret Michalski: For today's meeting we have Jeremy Braver a special guest. Our topic is games and gaming in SL.
Margaret Michalski: This is a public meeting, so we do keep a transcript of what is said in local chat. For a copy of older transcripts, please visit http://sler-transcripts.wikispaces.com and for more recent transcripts, please visit http://homepage.mac.com/jessid/slroundtable/
Margaret Michalski: The SL Education Roundtable meeting happens each week, but we are looking to develop a community of educators from around the world with a variety of thoughts, needs, and ideas.
Margaret Michalski: Please join the SL EDUCATION ROUNDTABLE group. If you have problems finding it in search, just outside this amphitheater you will see several displays. By clicking the appropriate one you can join the group.
Margaret Michalski: Since many have asked, there is a program running here on the CHSSSouth island called the CHSSSouth FREE LAND INITIATIVE. Details can be found in the notegiver on the wall to my right (your left) and also the appropriate display located outside the amphitheater.
Margaret Michalski: You may also join us on FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=44078263753&ref=share
Margaret Michalski: Finally, if you have Mystitool on, or other similiar tool, please put it to sleep or detach it for now. :-) It tends to lag things.
Margaret Michalski: As mentioned earlier today?s topic is games and gaming in SL. Feel free to post questions and comments.
Marty Snowpaw: do we want to deal with whether sl is game
Margaret Michalski: Now, please go ahead and type in where you are from and what you do.
Margaret Michalski: Then will Let Jeremy take over.
Jeremy Braver: Yes, plz intros
Jeremy Braver: lots of peeps, very curious about everyone and what you do
Margaret Michalski: Margaret, Univ of Illinois at Chicago, Research Information Specialist
IzzyLander Karu begins to worry that Mysti's going to crash
Olivia Hotshot: Ann Steckel - CSU Chico - Tech consultant
Katya Anatine: I'm a literacy educator/researcher in St Louis, MO - working on a study of teaching and learning in SL
Hackshaven Harford: http://www.linkedin.com/in/hackshaven
Adra Letov: Diane Nahl, U. Hawaii, Library & Info. Science, teaching and research in SL
JeanClaude Vollmar: I'm JC (Jeff Le Blanc in RL) from the University of Northwestern Ohio. I'm the VP for IT there.
Teri Boxen: teri lind San Jose State Univ. grad student nursing
Talus Nemeth: jason shipley - freelance developer currently working with instructional technology
Oronoque Westland: Roberta Kilkenny. I teach Caribbean history at Hunter College, City University of New York.
KaLynne Silvercloud: Cathy Anderson SD board of Regents..
Kavon Zenovka: Kae - Front Range Coomunity College - Colorado
Dante Hydraconis: Jeremy, Interactivity Developer: Bellevue University
Max Xenobuilder: Max Lieberman, Ed. Tech. student interested in games at University of Arizona
Shawnta Clarence: Shawnta, Indiana University Northwest School of Nursing, Lecturer
Marty Snowpaw: Toronto Canada...GS New Media....content producer
Lori Zaks: Loreta Ulmer, Old Dominion University
Imno Loon: John Mitchell, of Madpea Productions and we make games within sl
JudyArx Scribe: Judy- Creative computing in Architecture- Auckland University- NZ
Firery Broome: University of Delaware, IT faculty support, caretaker of the UD islands in SL
Profesora Farigoule: Delaware Technical & Community college, Architectural Engineering, faculty, currently using SL in design fundamentals class , LAE Cripps real world
Edith Halderman: Broadfording Christian Academy, Marylanm- educational gopher
JanythKU Techsan: Janyth Ussery - Director of Web Ed - Texas State Technical College
Lolly Dovgal: Hello, from CSU, Chico, Technology and Learning Program
Jeremy Braver: heh, Edith, gopher
Gimme Lobo: Kerry Rice, Department of Educational Technology, Boise State University
IzzyLander Karu: Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, Ed. Technologist
Jeremy Braver: Gig 'em Aggies
Margaret Michalski: Is that everyone?
Riven Homewood: University of San Francisco, In SL Director of the Steelhead Public Library
Jeremy Braver: or are you guys aggies down there Izzy?
IzzyLander Karu: No Jeremy, we're the Islanders !
IzzyLander Karu: Izzy's our mascot
Jeremy Braver: Any others? who you are and what you do?
Jeremy Braver: Aw, sry
Margaret Michalski: Ok, if everyone has introduced themselves I will hand everything over to Jeremy. If you have any questions feel free to post them or just IM me.
IzzyLander Karu: i figured i'd be the our mascot in sl
Jeremy Braver: not that he's ur mascot, but that i called you an aggie, hehe
Margaret Michalski: Jeremy, go ahead.
Jeremy Braver: Thx Margaret
Jeremy Braver: Well, I wanted to wait to post who I am, as I'm facilitating
IzzyLander Karu: haha...no, we're not aggies, those are only the A&Mer sin College Station
Jeremy Braver: I am Jeremy Braver (Jeremy Koester in RL). I am President/CEO of Braver Consulting. The body of my work is related to gaming for learning in virtual worlds (immersive learning spaces). I am involved with GaLiSL, 3Immersions, Maya Realities, NECC, GLS and LGN among others. I also connect people as a natural networker.
Edith Halderman: there is evidently some interest in the topic - maybe a larger session using voice should be planned as follow-up?
KaLynne Silvercloud: sorry..
Jeremy Braver: So, I'm quite sure we won't get all questions answered, feel free to friend me and talk more later
Jeremy Braver: So, my first question to get us started is to open the floor up to the fact of the matter of the state of the field of gaming for learning
Jeremy Braver: As of now, it's very undefined, how would you define gaming in consideration of learning spaces?
Jeremy Braver: or just define a game.
Dante Hydraconis: Serious Games in General or A game for learning?
JudyArx Scribe: Broadly..
Jeremy Braver: if you want to use Serious games, that's fine, but i think that has certain assumptions to it, right?
Jeremy Braver: just want to open the floor to set some defs out there
Edith Halderman: what assumptions?
Adra Letov: immersive engagement involving deep content and/or skill building
Profesora Farigoule: game = structured strategy with multiple outcomes for specific objective ?
Margaret Michalski: in education I see a game as something that makes a student motivated to participate and does not appear to be an exam type.
Lolly Dovgal: Gaming is a very broad category, I think we should talk about the goals or objectives of the games for educational purposes.
Profesora Farigoule: which by my definition Second Life is not a game
JeanClaude Vollmar: Well, there's competition and there's a goal, you can win a game.
Jeremy Braver: So, a game MUST be goal oriented?
Hackshaven Harford: ...but it can house one should we choose to create it
Max Xenobuilder: yes, jeremy. otherwise it is a toy
Lolly Dovgal: Games are very goal oriented.
JudyArx Scribe: playing is a very old form of learning
Dante Hydraconis: yup
Imno Loon: a game is something that is fun to take part in
Margaret Michalski: just like there are goals and a objectives in a course.
Talus Nemeth: i like the current reference to SL as a "platform" rather than a specific app...
Adra Letov: life is goal oriented, that's not a distinguishing factor
Lori Zaks: I think it needs some 'competition to it..
Jeremy Braver: Good point Adra
Max Xenobuilder: what about the definition of a game as both rules and fiction working in concert?
Dante Hydraconis: is solitaire a game though?
Dante Hydraconis: no comp in that
Jeremy Braver: so, we can't define a game with a simple def, obviously
Lori Zaks: yes.. there is..
Edith Halderman: many hs' play it
Lori Zaks: the competition is to win..
Adra Letov: or beat your own best
Jeremy Braver: So, can we define a game as having a win state?
Lolly Dovgal: Or solve something.
Margaret Michalski: what type of games are used in education?
Lolly Dovgal: Achieve something.
Imno Loon: max: why is fiction needed? It could be a game based on fact
Marc Rexen: Is an Army tank commander in a 3D simulator "playing a game?"
Margaret Michalski: especially higher education
Edith Halderman: so a game has a beginning and an end?
IzzyLander Karu ponders the possible drawback of labeling SL as a game?
Adra Letov: or an accomplishment state?
Olivia Hotshot: SL i snot a game
Lori Zaks: I think it has an accomplished state.. yes..
Max Xenobuilder: say "scenario"? or similar then, rather than fiction
Kavon Zenovka: I think the fiction - is the willingness to step into Huizinga's magic circle, where you abide by the game's rules
Talus Nemeth: SL is labeled a game for the convenience of marketing and press coverage
Lori Zaks: from what I have read from Educause.. the motivation is created with competition..
Hackshaven Harford: google define: game - animal hunted for food or spot
Hackshaven Harford: sport
Talus Nemeth: but i agree, it's not a game
Sunshine Sigall: are we using voice? I'm finding this a bit difficult to follow
Adra Letov: lol Hart
Jeremy Braver: Kavon, isn't there a game in griefing or smashing people's experiences?
JudyArx Scribe: as an educator for me any thing can be a game - the play is what matters - as a player i am looking
Kavon Zenovka: I think you can play in SL but it does not have a specific state of win or lose
Margaret Michalski: We are not using voice today
Imno Loon: sl can be both a game or a non-game, it depends on what you use it for
JudyArx Scribe: and Thinking
Sunshine Sigall: thank you
Kavon Zenovka: griefing is play
Jeremy Braver: We are staying with Text as that will get way hard to follow on voice
Jeremy Braver: I agree, Kavon
Adra Letov: there are many specific states of accolplishment in SL moment by moment
Edith Halderman: what is griefing?
Max Xenobuilder: "play" alone does not a game make, kavon
Riven Homewood: So this is a discussion session, not a presentation?
Jeremy Braver: ok, ok, ok, let's pause a second................
Margaret Michalski: yes
Oronoque Westland: we use text in order to create the transcript
Kavon Zenovka: some griefers may treat it as a game - win or lose but the people they are griefing have not agreed to play
Hackshaven Harford: :)
Talus Nemeth: griefing is the intentional harassment of other residents for personal entertainment
Edith Halderman: so i club penguin a game or a virtual world?
Jeremy Braver: I wanted to stir the pot a bit, but let's take it back a bit
Kavon Zenovka: @ Max correct - my point was you can have play without having a game
JudyArx Scribe: not but play may be enough for the game of education
Olivia Hotshot: griefers make life miserable for those on the receving end
Riven Homewood: Greifers often say things like "This is a game, and you losers treat it like it was real life"
Edith Halderman: what about webkins?
Sunshine Sigall: i don't believe griefing is playing. I find it extremely poor manners
Jeremy Braver: So, we clearly have different defs for what a game is and how it's employed as a learning tool
Sunshine Sigall: and harassment
JudyArx Scribe: VW's are empty boxes - we play in
Adra Letov: in ed people must feel they have accomplished things
Riven Homewood: Many griefers seem to think it's a game :-0
Jeremy Braver: The point that I wanted to make was that there is no clear definition of gaming for learning
Kavon Zenovka: @ sunshine - but do the griefers consider it play?
Riven Homewood: *nod
Talus Nemeth: no, there is no real definition
Edith Halderman: how do we use gaming to accomplish objectives in education?
Sunshine Sigall: perhaps Kavon. I however do not
Talus Nemeth: i think it's still to embryonic
Jeremy Braver: If you want to point to Huizinga or Callois, you can say that research has gone back maybe 40 yrs
Kavon Zenovka: @ Sunshine - of course not; very few people who do but the griefers do
Riven Homewood: and I bet the use of games in rl learning goes back for thousands of years
Jeremy Braver: but they weren't considering the same kind of games that we consider, the same kind of technology applications that make different experiences possible
IzzyLander Karu has seen the negative effects of referring to SL as a game, especially to those who haven't really experienced SL. I have faculty and people in leadership roles resisting or even discounting the value of SL because it's "just a game" to them
Adra Letov: parents have always used games to teach their kids
Kavon Zenovka: Huzinga wrote in the 30s - wasn't translated into English until 50s
Jeremy Braver: Clearly, play as a form of learning dates back further than we can track
JanythKU Techsan: partly because learning is a personal thing...independent of any tool, game or technology
Margaret Michalski: I asked my institution of have an SL seminar and they declined because of the gaming issue.
Riven Homewood: Yes, online games offer great possibilities for putting people into different roles and situations
Talus Nemeth: i think, i regards to SL's specific functions, it is a game as a parable that you can participate immersively
Jeremy Braver: what we want to focus on is not whether we learn through play, but rather is the use of gaming as a learning tool appropriate?
Imno Loon: well we even say that animals "play" to tune their skills
Kavon Zenovka: game is often used as a heuristic by those who don't understand the difference between a game and a virtual world. It's their only frame of reference.
Margaret Michalski: so, something like role-playing.
Adra Letov: NIH just announced stimulus grant funds for game research for ed and biomed
JanythKU Techsan: it will take those of us that see it as an educational tool to overcome the misnomer that is it just a game
Kavon Zenovka: they get caught up in the visual
Margaret Michalski: that is a term educators like to use
Marty Snowpaw: sl is more literature or theater than a game
JudyArx Scribe: Jeremy why is a game not appropriate...??
Edith Halderman: so what IS the difference btwn a game & a virtual world?
Marty Snowpaw: and it is ideal for education and teaching
Jeremy Braver: I asked if it was, not that it isn't
Riven Homewood: Games have rules and goals
Jeremy Braver: Games are tools
Edith Halderman: SL doesn't?
Edith Halderman: club penguin doesn?t?
Hackshaven Harford: I would hope virtual worlds have rules...
Jeremy Braver: I can play just about ANY game and find a piece of learning in it
Max Xenobuilder: sl has no goals
Edith Halderman: webkinz doesn't?
JudyArx Scribe: yes but i am wondering why a game gets a bad rap..content might but a game why
Leal Choche: Games have "rules" - can't be a game without rules....if no rules...then not a game...simple
Edith Halderman: Max i disagree
Shawnta Clarence: But i can see how in sl u can set goals with rules for any given activity
Riven Homewood: what rules does SL have? What goals? Other than the ones we decide to make ourselves?
Max Xenobuilder: what rules are set for you by sl?
Jeremy Braver: Good question, Leal, can you have a game with no rules? What about ARGS?
Edith Halderman: do players learn the same skills in both games & virtual worlds?
Hackshaven Harford: Do undo others as you would have them do undo you
Max Xenobuilder: the rule is to discover the end in an arg
Kavon Zenovka: An ARG always has the rule "This is not a game"
Jeremy Braver: What about socially developed, organic games?
Talus Nemeth: SL has goals for many users. some residents sell products in order to be able to purchase other items. in RL, that's a definite goal...
Hackshaven Harford: a good rule for first life too it turns out
Adra Letov: people have goals in SL
JudyArx Scribe: of course games don?t have to have shared rules
Riven Homewood: What is an ARG?
Max Xenobuilder: Those are set by users, but a game must have goals set by the game
Kavon Zenovka: Alternate Reality Game
Jeremy Braver: I'm working on an ARG with GLS where we are responding to the involvement of the participants to where the game goes and how it ends up there
Sunshine Sigall: Jeremy i believe games are learning tools if the game is appropriate to the lesson and the game is not only to engage but the game has meaning to the topic
Edith Halderman: what ARE the goals ina virtual world?
Adra Letov: there are rules like the COS and TOS and sims have rules, groups have rules
Leal Choche: SL does not have rules...so it cant be a game.....to the uninitiated to looking at a computer...the "look" of SL "looks" like a game...same as if school class met on a field with lines painted on the grass,,,most looking at a photo of that would think your were playing a game....
Riven Homewood: Please tell me the name of a rl game that doesn't have shared rules?
Max Xenobuilder: calvinball
Edith Halderman: never heard of it
Riven Homewood: Not a real game
Hackshaven Harford: government?
Edith Halderman: tell us about it
Margaret Michalski: what are some good examples in SL of games in education?
Kavon Zenovka: @Leal I had an instructor who was making an avatar in the lab the other day and she felt guilty because she thought it looked like she was playing a game.
JudyArx Scribe: aren?t we reacting to more than a functional idea of what the word game means...
Jeremy Braver: I would say that you would find any game without rules to be socially based
Edith Halderman: Darfur is Dying
Adra Letov: socially-based meaning the people make the rules
Edith Halderman: flight sims
Marc Rexen: ...and SL has tons of rules, rules on how the Havok 4 Physics engine works, what happens at walls, when you fly...
Hackshaven Harford: I'm partial to the weather challenge game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK1u3ccJRyc
Kavon Zenovka: @edith rules or no rules ?
Edith Halderman: where?
Adra Letov: what you can drag into a chat window
Max Xenobuilder: rules but no goals, marc
Riven Homewood: Those are code, not rules in the sense of the rules of baseball
Jeremy Braver: So, we definitely have our opinions about games and what defines a game, and we don't all agree
Kavon Zenovka: @edith - darfur is dying - I'm having some faculty play it this week.
Leal Choche: if want to nit pic..then consider SL as being "unstructured" as opposed to being a "structured" game.....a structured game assigns roles, and behavior,; unstructured doesn?t
Edith Halderman: rules
Marc Rexen: How far text goes, voice, how far you can see...just not a lot of "social rules."
Jeremy Braver: Let's set that aside, I wonder what you all think about whether or not games are good tools for learning?
Edith Halderman: 3rd to 12th graders love it
JanythKU Techsan: there are lots of examples one can use to make a point any direction on the topic. However, the whole instead of the pieces determines that SL is not a game.
Adra Letov: social rules in ToS & CS and groups
Edith Halderman: excellent tools
KaLynne Silvercloud: I guess I don't get what are RL laws but rules...
Imno Loon: they can be, depends on the game, and the player
KaLynne Silvercloud: may be everything is a game...
Imno Loon: one may not fit the other
IzzyLander Karu agrees games are good teaching tools
Margaret Michalski: I think that games make students more motivated.
Jock Bing: Have you mentioned yet that games usually have WINNERS and LOSERS
Olivia Hotshot: good point Jock
Jeremy Braver: Assuming the right game for the right situation/content, is a game a good learning tool?
Marc Rexen: Given that this "game" can collect 25 students to listen to a talking head present for an hour, I'd say it can be used for teaching.
Riven Homewood: Yes - good point - winning is the goal
Leal Choche: Well you are not suppose to stab a person with a knife when riding a subway....that doesn?t make riding a subway a game....don?t confuse rules of behavior with rules of actions
Imno Loon: then yes they are
Edith Halderman: games have leader boards
Kavon Zenovka: even a bad game can be a point of discussion
Max Xenobuilder: jock, I would clarify by saying they have "states of victory or defeat, sometimes. Not always win/loss.
Jeremy Braver: Losing may be a goal too
Lolly Dovgal: It's a good learning tool based on the assumption that demonstrations lend themselves to learning.
KaLynne Silvercloud: is it tied to some sort of learning outcome?
Margaret Michalski: in education would you want a student to think they are a loser?
Edith Halderman: immediate feedback in a game
Sunshine Sigall: does anyone have any suggestions as to what kind of educational games can be played in SL
KaLynne Silvercloud: which would be a goal..
Jeremy Braver: Gee says that games are good in that they prepare us for action
Jock Bing: that's ok--you can call it victory and defeat.
Talus Nemeth: the department i represent actually teaches game development for learning as part of its curriculum, so I?d have to agree that games make excellent teaching tools
Edith Halderman: building
Max Xenobuilder: one can also learn by making games... as in Vanderbilt?s worlds of wordcraft class
Edith Halderman: scripting
Riven Homewood: What about a game where you expect to loose, try again, go to the next level?
Jeremy Braver: Sunshine, big can of worms, let's talk about that later :)
Jock Bing: Las Vegas is such a game
Kavon Zenovka: @riven isn't that scientific discovery?
Adra Letov: Sunshine, I want to know that too
Imno Loon: even if the only basic thing they teach is hand - eye coordination
Marc Rexen: Role and scenario playing...good potential and actualization already.
Lolly Dovgal: If one assumes that learning recognizes change, and applying change to show resulting new actions.
Jeremy Braver: So many people are using games for learning in their courses.....and we clearly have some opinions here about the field
Kavon Zenovka: @ marc Shaffer's epistemic games?
Leal Choche: best kind of game (for teaching) is when the student has to learn what the rules are...then when they do...end of game...they have learned how to investigate and explore and discern a subject...
Jeremy Braver: I've asked a question about the use of gaming for learning to many people that hasn't gotten a great answer yet.
Lolly Dovgal: Feedback comes in may forms, and causes changes in behaviour that demonstrates learning.
Margaret Michalski: BUT is SL I have not seen anything outside of the standard multiple choice in education.
Kavon Zenovka: @ leal - thank you
Jeremy Braver: It's related to the appropriateness of gaming as a tool for learning.............
Jeremy Braver: Is a game still a game if you have to play?
Edith Halderman: use in learning?
Leal Choche: best game for teaching....don?t tell the student the rules
Jock Bing: Jeremy--good point
Edith Halderman: to meet objectives?
Edith Halderman: i never tell them rules
Max Xenobuilder: do you mean is a game still fun if it is assigned, jeremy?
Riven Homewood: Sure, Jeremy - compulsory soccer for PE class is still a game
Edith Halderman: or how to play
Kavon Zenovka: @leal but they do try to get you to tell - need to be strong!
Jeremy Braver: If the game is a requirement for a lesson or to meet an objective, and your student HAS to play, is it still a game to that student?
Margaret Michalski: I know that I react differently if I am scored vs no score
Leal Choche: lol - yes true
Imno Loon: if it is fun to play, then it is a game
Margaret Michalski: I like to get feedback but sometimes without a score.
Edith Halderman: ah no jeremy
Olivia Hotshot: sometimes watching a game is like having a surrogate experience - a fan gets a lot out of a game
Jeremy Braver: Hehe, you guys are awesome
Kavon Zenovka: they might not experience flow or high engagement or fun - but still a game.
Edith Halderman: they won't perform
Riven Homewood: so voluntary and run are requirements for it to be a game?
Kavon Zenovka: @Olivia - mirror neurons
Riven Homewood: *voluntary and fun
Marty Snowpaw: sl is not all process
Edith Halderman: but if you let them think they shouldn't be playing it...
Lolly Dovgal: OK
Olivia Hotshot: Kavon - good one!
Marty Snowpaw: it is not about it being a game
Jeremy Braver: You'll find that games are so undefined that we would all be right in different contexts
Jock Bing: Sudoku is a game without losers,
Jock Bing: just quitters
Olivia Hotshot: too funny Jock
Hackshaven Harford is a quitter
Riven Homewood: I always loose Sudoku :-) - I hate it and give up really quickly
Lolly Dovgal: Sudoku is fun.
JanythKU Techsan: or look at the answers and cheat..lol
Marty Snowpaw: the perspective is not exclusively about process
Jeremy Braver: Flow is important in gaming, huh?
Kavon Zenovka: so still a game but not highly engaging
Marty Snowpaw: sl is not Sudoku
Edith Halderman: flow - yes
Riven Homewood: I'm very interested in the question of cheating on games
Marty Snowpaw: or WOW
Hackshaven Harford: I play games with my insurance provider to see if they will cover a proceedure, it is neither voluntary or fun
Kavon Zenovka: flow is optimal but doesn't always happen
Jeremy Braver: hahah, Hack
Edith Halderman: there is no cheat in riven
Profesora Farigoule: @hack - oh I thought that game I invented ;)
Edith Halderman: only sharing
Jeremy Braver: I like the point that Riven brings up about cheating
JudyArx Scribe: hope the conversation continues- sadly 11:00 appointment- i lookforward to the content of the transcript
Hackshaven Harford: its closely related to the games we play with the IRS this time of year, also not voluntary or fun
Edith Halderman: there is no cheating
Jeremy Braver: to most I believe that cheating = greifing, yes?
Imno Loon: no, a game can start and stop, and start again from a different point
Riven Homewood: I'm currently playing a game that has a very serious group of cheaters
Kavon Zenovka: no
Edith Halderman: not the way we understand the word
Lolly Dovgal: If cheating is possible, is it not a game?
Kavon Zenovka: cheating - can be moddding or being creative - it all depends
Hackshaven Harford: unless of course cheating is part of the game
Riven Homewood: My feeling is they have created a new version of the game with different rules
Edith Halderman: sharing cheat codes is part of the game
Jeremy Braver: One man's cheating is another man's treasure
Edith Halderman: it is how the game is played
Riven Homewood: Not to people who don't share cheat codes
Edith Halderman: kids all share them
Jock Bing: I think we talk about games because they are fun and therefore motivating for studetns
Margaret Michalski: I don't see how you could cheat in a game using SL? Unless the two people are sitting next to each other.
Edith Halderman: ands= usu during my class
Hackshaven Harford: cheat codes == answer sheet to the test?
Jeremy Braver: I like Edith's comment
Lori Zaks: I think that games allow for creative thinking.. in gaming it should be considered 'creative' and in real life.. it is cheating.
Jeremy Braver: Cheating has become a way of life in gaming, but it's taken on more of a purposeful role
Kavon Zenovka: @ hackshaven if you consider a game constant assessment
Lori Zaks: sometimes two gamers will gang up on the other two.. and that union makes a 'score' or a win..
Jeremy Braver: Look at Halverson's research on how groups support activities
Hackshaven Harford: @kavon hehe, I do.
Leal Choche: However...for general society....including press...etc......the word "game" is used to denote a recreational activity.....although while one may hear that U.S. Congress is a 'game', that does not carry the same weight as calling Baseball or Football or Soccer a game...so when SL is defined with that term (and those here can debate the merits of calling it SL a game) when the general public sees that term attached to SL (as an adjective) then that puts SL under the umbrella of 'games' and not something more serious...which of curse leads to a major problem of trying to get non-SL users of educational sys to consider SL in a serious manner.
Lori Zaks: learning to collaborate like that isn't bad.. isn't it part of the game?
Jeremy Braver: Jenkins also has a considerable body of work around how we communicate outside of a game based upon that game
Leal Choche: *serious
Olivia Hotshot: collaboration has never been more important than today
Leal Choche: SL is great for collaboration
Kavon Zenovka: @ leal so we use euphemisms like educational simulation
Lori Zaks: so, if I do it in a game.. to win.. didn't I learn how to collaborate?
Lolly Dovgal: Amen, Olivia
Imno Loon: and how to cheat lori
Jeremy Braver: That's what I was getting at Olivia
Lori Zaks: well, yes..
Leal Choche: right.....until someone sees the SL logo.....
Max Xenobuilder: "cheating" is perhaps a loaded term for educators who don't actually play games
Olivia Hotshot: just because something looks fun does not mean it's not important
Edith Halderman: sharing cheat codes IS collaboration
Jeremy Braver: IF you want to be at a win state in the world to come, you better be online and collaborating with the global mind, yes?
Lori Zaks: I agree, Olivia
Olivia Hotshot: agree jeremy
Leal Choche: agree Olivia
Talus Nemeth: agreed
Jeremy Braver: So, that puts gaming into a class of it's own
Margaret Michalski: Is there a good example in SL?
Imno Loon: no, to get to the end game early outside of the rules, then it's a cheat, and the cheated are the ones doing it... you will not learn what the "game" was set out to do
Riven Homewood: Charing cheat codes is one thing if you are 0playing against the game, another if you are playing against people who don't share cheat codes
Olivia Hotshot: of what margaret?
Edith Halderman: mm - language lab ?
Edith Halderman: literature alive ?
Jeremy Braver: For example, if I go into an interview and htat person plays WOW like I do, there's an immediate bond
Margaret Michalski: a good educational game
Olivia Hotshot: ahhh
Imno Loon: gaming is a class of it's own... has been for years
Max Xenobuilder: Agreed, imno, but what about the fact that you can learn by breaking the rules? If two players play SimCity and one cheats to get free $, they've learned something about economic disparity
Lori Zaks: but doesn't the team that didn't share codes.. learn that you should if you are to win?
Jeremy Braver: But if I put that I?m a lvl 80 Tauren prot warrior tank on my resume and flaunt that to a person who thinks gaming is a waste of time, it'll be my downfall
Margaret Michalski: I plan to include role-playing in my project and some are saying that is a game?
Edith Halderman: freedom to build - important observation
Imno Loon: max: yes I agree, I'm not saying you will learn something else from the cheating... are we not learning every moment of our lives?
Max Xenobuilder: we can try
Jeremy Braver: Leal's point about freedom is great
Jeremy Braver: Have you noticed in games and in learning, control is being handed over to the user
Adra Letov: role-playing is used in the professions --standard practice
Jeremy Braver: Good learning puts the user in control, yes/no?
Edith Halderman: there is no one sage in a game
Lori Zaks: I say yes
Lolly Dovgal: Yes
Adra Letov: yes and engaged
Max Xenobuilder: yes, and reflection on the game can be guided
Margaret Michalski: yes
Edith Halderman: yes jeremy i agree
Olivia Hotshot: yes indeed
Imno Loon: what we are trying to do here is to figure is learning through gaming possible, and how can we close the definition around that... if at all possible.... because like many things, it means different things to different people
Lori Zaks: Isn't that the whole point of the game?
Talus Nemeth: Chicago municipal departments are beginning to use SL for employee training
Lori Zaks: to empower the user so they can learn?
Leal Choche: training...doing what......?
JanythKU Techsan: SL also has the freedom to explore and network with people from diverse areas of the world
Jeremy Braver: So, as educators, what is our role in facilitating the appropriate use of gaming for learning?
Zotarah Shepherd: Role-playing is another term for improvisational acting.
Lolly Dovgal: Responsibility for one's own learning is a criterion?
Riven Homewood: Well, is there anybody here who thinks you can't learn froma game?
Margaret Michalski: and building confidence
Arlanders Rae: i agree to a point - if you give the user complete and absolute control, they will never know what they need to learn in the first place
Edith Halderman: i thought the point of a game was to get a place on the leader board
Max Xenobuilder: Is there anyone here who does not play computer or video games?
Jeremy Braver: Riven, it's not whether or not you learn, but what you learn in a game, yes?
JanythKU Techsan: all games do teach a bit of logic and critical thinking
Lori Zaks: that is what i feel.. you always learn something..
Edith Halderman: i don't play shooters
Zotarah Shepherd: I don't. But I go to some role-play sims in SL.
Edith Halderman: kids in school do
Profesora Farigoule: except for SL - don't play much computer games
Jock Bing: I don't--but still feel SL is important
Leal Choche: What one learns from playing any game.....is how to game the rules of the game......how to game the game....and that there is such a thing as "gaming a game"..that lesson then can be transfer to ANYTHING in life.
Marc Rexen: It's one thing to read about how to respond to a critical care health incident in a book, quite different Role Playing it with others in real time.
Olivia Hotshot is learning to love WoW
Arlanders Rae: just because it can transfer doesn?t mean it will
Max Xenobuilder: interesting. I do play games, and I hate SL but still recognize its utility
Jeremy Braver: Pew and Internet released a study that said that 97% of kids from 12-16 played a game within the last 24 hours
Kavon Zenovka: @ Marc but certain actions can become automatic thru constant practice
Jeremy Braver: and that 50% of them play everyday
Profesora Farigoule: @jeremy - I believe those stats :)
Jock Bing: 97% have access to computers????
Max Xenobuilder: that report's free for dl from their site for anyone without it
Jeremy Braver: in my 8 yrs teaching middle school, I found that kids not only play games, they play online together
Leal Choche: max - what is it in SL that is "hated" ? the lack of struture? the lack of consistant rules? am curious
JanythKU Techsan: so the big topic is how to engage the 97% with learning activities
Adra Letov: so they will expect to be educated via ludic environments
Profdan Netizen: One definitely learns through game playing, but are all learning objectives best served through game playing?
Kavon Zenovka: @ Jeremy but does that report break out what we would call a "social virtual world " if talking about adults.
Edith Halderman: high schoolers don't
Shawnta Clarence: Marc this is exactly what i think would be best about SL for nursing students
Arlanders Rae: @profdan definitely not
Jeremy Braver: it didn't rly address that Kavon
Margaret Michalski: teens like to play games but how many play educational games?
Arlanders Rae: i think one of the real problems that educators interested in game face is the assumption that throwing educational content into a game somehow automatically makes it better
Edith Halderman: al games are educational
Marc Rexen: Tacoma agrees and has a big program.
Arlanders Rae: that is a huge leap
JanythKU Techsan: lol..when mom and dad are looking
Max Xenobuilder: Leal, I hate the interface and physics. It's a nightmare to maneuver and interact w/the environment. The "utility" is communication, of course.
Lori Zaks: When I talk to my students about use of tech in classrooms.. they all remark about the Oregon Trail..
Edith Halderman: the who?
Edith Halderman: oh that IS sad
Olivia Hotshot: right up there with Lemonade Stand - but oregon Trail is now an Iphone app - not sure it has been released yet though
Jeremy Braver: I played oregon trail in middle school, that's awesome
Margaret Michalski: So, is the trick to design it to be educational without using the term education and game?
Edith Halderman: me too
Talus Nemeth: ha
Edith Halderman: no one plays that now
Leal Choche: ((interface does need help.... but expand on "interact" that is not too clear
Jeremy Braver: So, as we wrap up, I want to point to one last game as an example
Olivia Hotshot: then you build the Creepy Treehouse
Imno Loon: I was given BBC computers over 20 years ago to play games in the classroom... one computer to the whole school, we learnt a lot from the games were given....things have only got better
Jeremy Braver: How many of you play World of Warcraft?
Kavon Zenovka: I do.
Olivia Hotshot raises hand
Margaret Michalski: not me
Edith Halderman: not i
Profdan Netizen: nope
Leal Choche: noe
Lori Zaks: I have
Talus Nemeth: formerly
Max Xenobuilder: i have
Jessica Knapp: no
Jock Bing: nope
JeanClaude Vollmar: no
Imno Loon: nope
IzzyLander Karu: probably Margaret. Almost like not saying "it's good for you" when referring to vegetables
Arlanders Rae: no time
Shawnta Clarence: nope
Adra Letov: n
Lolly Dovgal: Me, too
Jeremy Braver: so, most of you don't play
Lolly Dovgal: I love WoW.
Edith Halderman: i'm no good at coordination anywho
Olivia Hotshot: i play
Profdan Netizen: I played URU for a while.
Adra Letov: my grad students play WoW
Jeremy Braver: If you have, you can attest to the fact that WOW (IMHO) has some of the most wicked amount of stats produced
Olivia Hotshot: our whole dept seems to play WoW
Edith Halderman: most highschoolers do
Lori Zaks: My grown kids do..
Talus Nemeth: what kinds of stats?
Jeremy Braver: WOW has so many factors in not only stats that are generated, but in the organic play and dynamic of teams and social interaction
Riven Homewood: WOW reminds me of baseball with their stats :-)
Jeremy Braver: Talus, let?s talk about that later
Talus Nemeth: k
Jeremy Braver: Riven, very true, WOW has stats comparable with baseball, i would argue more
Olivia Hotshot: so many publications written by amateurs
Max Xenobuilder: ?
Edith Halderman: wouldn't it be wonderful if James Paul Gee could come into SL to do a preso for us?
Olivia Hotshot: movies - you tube etc - musical scores written to go with the moviesetc - all by gamers
Jeremy Braver: So, just based on the fact that WOW generates stats, you can say that one can learn through it's play
Marc Rexen: So would the conversation be different if SL was marketed as a Virtual Reality Internet Conferencing System, like Breeze or Adobe Connect?
Edith Halderman: but is a conferencing system
Edith Halderman: and used that way
Jeremy Braver: What if SL generated an opportunity to have teams work towards a goal?
Riven Homewood: My question is whether the people who started keeping WOW stats were already interested and trained in stats in rl
Jeremy Braver: Good, question, Riven, dunno
Talus Nemeth: @jeremy - that's what our students are doing
Imno Loon: Jeremy, that already is happening
Imno Loon: through users making games for others
Jeremy Braver: Awesome Talus, that was my next comment, heh
Jeremy Braver: That many, probably here, are creating goal based games for learning here in SL
Olivia Hotshot: i think it all has to do with motivation
Leal Choche: SL is actually best duplicating RL....in physical...then create rp ...whether its First Responders learning or facilities
Margaret Michalski: Motivation is the key
Jeremy Braver: I wonder how much more powerful SL could be as a learning tool if we could create socially driven and organically derived games?
Margaret Michalski: The way I see it it is important to incorporate the correct game with the topic.
Jeremy Braver: The goal would be the same as learning, give the choice and the control back to the user
Zotarah Shepherd: I teach Life-skills. Everything in first life is a game, if you want to look at it that way. Ants in my kitchen, riding my bicycle when there is traffic getting a paper done in time, yes dieting to get healthier ... All have goals and rules.
Edith Halderman: and sway the staunch status quo
Imno Loon: it can already be done
Talus Nemeth: actually, having the students help create the environment in which they will learn is very cool
Olivia Hotshot: good examples Zotarah
Arlanders Rae: @Margaret that is absolutely important, and often ignored
Jeremy Braver: So, we are about out of time here
Max Xenobuilder: darn
Shawnta Clarence: For nursing students I see simulation as the important feature or component to develop - with use of artificial avatars as patients
Margaret Michalski: we have 5 minutes
Jeremy Braver: I'd like to offer my email if anyone is interested in talking further
Olivia Hotshot: did anyone notice we started today with musical chairs =) always fun trying to sit at these meetings
Talus Nemeth: please do
Margaret Michalski: That would be great1
Jeremy Braver: Lots of ideas and really the concept is way too big and undefined to cover in one hour
Jeremy Braver: I'd like to invite you to my Keynote in VWBPE as I'll be running some games for my talk
Lori Zaks: excellent
Talus Nemeth: nice
Kavon Zenovka: Come to Games sessions and MMORPG tours at the Virtual Worlds - Best Practices in Educatio in 3/27-3/29!
Max Xenobuilder: I'm just going to throw this out there for the transcript blog about a lot of educational uses for games and other related topics at http://boomculture.blogspot.com. Love to have some new participants in the convo there.
Margaret Michalski: I know our calander is full until June but perhaps AJ will be willing to have another session.
Jeremy Braver: I'll be facilitating on Sunday, March 29th at 1pm SLT
Margaret Michalski: where?
Jeremy Braver: thx for the info Max
Marty Snowpaw: great will be there
Talus Nemeth: thanks max
Jeremy Braver: I'm not sure, Margaret, you can check the VWBPE site
Marty Snowpaw: it is a a three day conference
Margaret Michalski: Thanks
Jeremy Braver: or ask Zana Kohime
Kavon Zenovka: NUMBEr of different sms - ROckcliffe, SIms where the Education Faire was - we'll put it out on SLED
Lolly Dovgal: Thanks to all.
Jeremy Braver: So, any last questions?
Jeremy Braver: thx to all for coming
JanythKU Techsan: has an announcement at the end
Leal Choche: ty Max
Olivia Hotshot: as always if you have any photos of the SLER group please post them on Flickr - images from today will be on the transcript and on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliviahotshot/sets/72157613096361294/
Edith Halderman: i think the discussion topic should be repeated
Margaret Michalski: If no more questions there are two last announcements.
Talus Nemeth: agreed
Edith Halderman: with two more guiding questions
JanythKU Techsan: The Virtual World Story Project is pleased to announce its first annual Story Quest, to be held on World Storytelling Day, March 20, 2009.
Jeremy Braver: This subject needs to be broken down into preselected bits
Imno Loon: If anybody would like to learn more about getting a game made, please feel to contact me
Kavon Zenovka: At VWBPE - we can add a MMORPG discussion if you want!
Olivia Hotshot: Thank you so much for coordinating the meeting today margaret. Well Done!
JanythKU Techsan: I will set a box on the table so you can share with your educators
Margaret Michalski: Olivia has created a site on flickr
Margaret Michalski: please contact her for information on how to join.
Margaret Michalski: join
Olivia Hotshot: thank you Margaret
Olivia Hotshot: hey Tux!
Jeremy Braver: Great, well, if there aren't any more questions, thx for coming
Talus Nemeth: thank you
Margaret Michalski: HanythKU do you have an announcement?
Zotarah Shepherd: I hope to see you all at VWBPE.
JeanClaude Vollmar: Thanks!
JanythKU Techsan: has a poster and notecard about the Quest
Marc Rexen: Thanks.
Olivia Hotshot claps for Jeremy and Margaret
Margaret Michalski: I know jeremy has a group on google
Max Xenobuilder: many thanks
Zotarah Shepherd: And next week if not sooner.
Edith Halderman: (enthusiastic applause)
JanythKU Techsan: feel free to take a copy and share it
Leal Choche: clap clap
Margaret Michalski: Thank you all for comments.
Jeremy Braver: Feel free to friend me or email me at jeremykoester@gmail.com
Edith Halderman: nite all
Zotarah Shepherd: Great discussion as usual.
Margaret Michalski: AJ is a tough role to follow!
JanythKU Techsan: oh she did not get the poster in there
JanythKU Techsan: if you want a poster to display, IM me please
Margaret Michalski: Thank you all again!
Zotarah Shepherd: Thank you Margaret and Jeremy
Jeremy Braver: Sure thing, thx for coming
Margaret Michalski: I will be sending Iggy the transcripts
Margaret Michalski: Once they are ready he will inform the group.
Margaret Michalski: Thanks Jeremy!
Jeremy Braver: No worries, glad to be here, thx for having me
Jeremy Braver: G'night all
Margaret Michalski: I apologize to those who did not get a sitting spot.
Margaret Michalski: g'night
Margaret Michalski: Feel free to take a tour of the island
Olivia Hotshot: Good Bye Everyone!
Zotarah Shepherd: There is plenty of room at this table. One more seat always rezzes. Did we reach the limit of that this time?
Profdan Netizen: No problem, Margaret. Standing was just fine.
Margaret Michalski: Too many people to see the empty seats. : )
JanythKU Techsan: I set the poster to buy a copy
Margaret Michalski: But it is always nice to have a crowd
Margaret Michalski: AJ should be back next week.
Margaret Michalski: If you are not a Rountabler yet I highly recommend that you join our group.
Talus Nemeth: thanks for moderating such a energetic meeting...
Zotarah Shepherd: Good to see you all. Bye everyone.